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From: Bianca Gibson on 26 Mar 2010 07:50
Thanks :).



On 26 March 2010 19:28, Tomas Lanczos <lanczos(a)t-zones.sk> wrote:
> I am sorry to say that, but the graph construction interface is much
> better on Gnumeric then on OOo Calc or MS Excel. I really like OOo and
> using it everyday for production (text editing, drawing, database
> maintenance) but I can't help myself, I really hate that wannabe excel
> graph wizard of the Calc, for that reason I mostly use Gnumeric instead
> of Calc. Yes, there are also x and y errorbars.
>
> Have a nice day
>
> Tomas
>
> On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 16:39 +1100, Bianca Gibson wrote:
>> I quite like the UI how it is. A supposedly more intuitive UI, MS
>> office 07 drove me away. It's easy for basic things, but as soon as
>> you go more complex it gets much harder. I'd rather keep a more
>> traditional interface, with a slightly steeper learning curve for
>> newcomers, that is in the long term easier. The only problem I have
>> with open office is the lack of both X and Y error bars on graphs!
>> There is one but not the other, and I need both for my physics
>> reports. This makes me do most of my reports on my linux box(my
>> preferred work station) running open office, then use someone else's
>> windows machine running MS office to finish it off.
>>
>> On 26 March 2010 07:03, Michael Adams <mbadams(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> > On Wednesday 24 March 2010 11:14, Miroslav Mazel wrote:
>> >> 1. *The UI*
>> >> The UI is the single most important aspect of any piece of software. That's
>> >> how Apple makes its money: its products aren't feature packed and its
>> >> competitors usually already have the features its products have, but
>> >> Apple's hardware and software are really intuitive and comfortable to use.
>> > You have no conclusions from this observation - if you are an Apple Fanboy,
>> > fine, but what were you expecting us to absorb from their strategy.
>> >
>> >> The Renaissance project is shaping up really well. We need to get as many
>> >> people as possible to test it, to provide feedback, and to look into more
>> >> things we could do with the UI to make it more intuitive.
>> > Ah - the look like Office 2007 team.
>> >
>> >> 2. *The look*
>> >> Self-explanatory.
>> > Is part of the Graphical UI. Do you like it or not? I fail to see the purpose
>> > of raising this as an item in your list unless you tell us what you mean.
>> >
>> >> 3. *The "feel"/the code*
>> >> OOo is infamous for being bloated. It's a famed memory and resource hog. So
>> >> here are a few streamlining suggestions:
>> >> a) Make secondary things into extensions. Take Google Chrome: it has put
>> >> basic things like the RSS feed indicator into extensions. I think we should
>> >> do a similar thing, but keep some of these basic extensions bundled in
>> >> OOo (but they would now be easily removable). A few things which could be
>> >> made into extensions: Wizards, templates, Gallery, Media player, Navigator,
>> >> Language tools, Collaboration tools, Help files, etc.
>> > I don't really get your point here at all. You start slamming memory and
>> > resource usage, then providing a list of things, of which many only get
>> > loaded into memory when called upon anyway. What part of the help files is
>> > running before it has been requested by the user?
>> >
>> >> b) Use bits of the same code across the suite. (It's very peculiar that
>> >> some things, like shapes or tables, don't work exactly the same way across
>> >> all the applications, or that things like the zoom slider end up in one
>> >> application several releases before another.)
>> > +1
>> >
>> >> 4. *The website*
>> >> The website holds the key to all of these, because that's where we get both
>> >> volunteers and customers. The website needs to be completely rethought,
>> >> from the ground up. The homepage needs a big, bright, warm download button
>> >> and needs to be more resolution-independent and colorful (judging by the
>> >> Feng-GUI heat map, where the OOo logo is the most distinctive part of the
>> >> page) in general.
>> >
>> > It just was. Where was your input into that process?
>> >
>> >> The whole site needs to be recategorized and made
>> >> browseable. All things related to projects (resources, mailing lists,
>> >> links, wiki pages, ...) need to be collected into one lucid, readable,
>> >> well-categorized project hub. Text needs to be drastically cut short,
>> >> projects and mailing lists that have been broken up into so many parts need
>> >> to be merged, and the new user routine has to be seriously simplified.
>> >> Seriously, there is just so much unnecessary complexity on the site right
>> >> now. And there needs to be an IdeaTorrent page, to provide a simple way to
>> >> collect ideas from people (because the current idea submission procedure is
>> >> too complicated and ineffective).
>> >>
>> >> That's it. Of course, there are still problems like compatibility and
>> >> feature parity with Office to tackle, but I'd say those are secondary
>> >> (we've got the major compatibility problems solved, I think).
>> > Trying to achieve feature parity with a competitor only ever makes a product a
>> > copycat, not an innovative leader. That is why the renaissance project GUI
>> > should be offered as an addon only. I have it on good authority that people
>> > are resistant to change. The Office ribbon is one thing that has cause a lot
>> > of grief to customers with a good grasp on the traditional layout, This
>> > results in reduced output (how temporary this is, is debatable). No changes
>> > should be made without someone offering training. Where are the resources you
>> > propose for the training.
>> >
>> > Changing a work site from Office 2003 to OO.o instead of Office 2007 was an
>> > opportunity that was mostly missed. Even then, training needs to be taken
>> > into the mix. I have heard of several half baked attempts to do just this
>> > that failed.
>> >
>> >> I'm only concerned about the speed we accomplish this with: things have
>> >> been moving pretty slowly around here, or so it seems.
>> >>
>> >> I think we could do things a lot faster with a website refresh. That's the
>> >> thing we want to do first, because it'll get us more contributors. I'd
>> >> especially appreciate the IdeaTorrent page.
>> >>
>> >> I'm also a bit concerned about online editing (with rising internet usage
>> >> and speeds, as well as the game-changing, web app-only Chrome OS), but I've
>> >> talked about that before...
>> >
>> > I hope you feel better after your rant. I do however see a lot of finger
>> > pointing without much practical help offered.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Michael
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>> >
>>
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>
>
>
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From: Miroslav Mazel on 25 Mar 2010 19:26
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Michael Adams <mbadams(a)paradise.net.nz>wrote:

> On Wednesday 24 March 2010 11:14, Miroslav Mazel wrote:
> > 1. *The UI*
> > The UI is the single most important aspect of any piece of software.
> That's
> > how Apple makes its money: its products aren't feature packed and its
> > competitors usually already have the features its products have, but
> > Apple's hardware and software are really intuitive and comfortable to
> use.
> You have no conclusions from this observation - if you are an Apple Fanboy,
> fine, but what were you expecting us to absorb from their strategy.
>
The big lesson: the UI is what gets the customer. The iPhone and the iPod,
and even the first rendition of Mac OS, come to mind, since they all
revolutionized the industry with UI alone, but if you want other examples,
how about Firefox or Google Chrome? Even Windows has some UI niceties...

>
> > The Renaissance project is shaping up really well. We need to get as many
> > people as possible to test it, to provide feedback, and to look into more
> > things we could do with the UI to make it more intuitive.
> Ah - the look like Office 2007 team.
>
Actually, if you check out the newest iterations (use the Mixed Controls
mode), they're getting more and more unique and likeable (I don't like the
Ribbon copies either, but the mixed controls are an okay compromise, I
think).

>
> > 2. *The look*
> > Self-explanatory.
> Is part of the Graphical UI. Do you like it or not? I fail to see the
> purpose
> of raising this as an item in your list unless you tell us what you mean.
>
Yes, I was talking mostly about the GUI, although I feel that OOo could use
a general branding/art refresh, sure.

>
> > 3. *The "feel"/the code*
> > OOo is infamous for being bloated. It's a famed memory and resource hog.
> So
> > here are a few streamlining suggestions:
> > a) Make secondary things into extensions. Take Google Chrome: it has put
> > basic things like the RSS feed indicator into extensions. I think we
> should
> > do a similar thing, but keep some of these basic extensions bundled in
> > OOo (but they would now be easily removable). A few things which could be
> > made into extensions: Wizards, templates, Gallery, Media player,
> Navigator,
> > Language tools, Collaboration tools, Help files, etc.
> I don't really get your point here at all. You start slamming memory and
> resource usage, then providing a list of things, of which many only get
> loaded into memory when called upon anyway. What part of the help files is
> running before it has been requested by the user?
>

That was just a general call for streamlining, not only concerning memory,
but also disk usage and feature bloat. Help files were just presented as an
example of a fitting extension: something not necessary for the functioning
of the suite, something a lot of users can do without, something that should
be easily removed and easily put back.

>
> > b) Use bits of the same code across the suite. (It's very peculiar that
> > some things, like shapes or tables, don't work exactly the same way
> across
> > all the applications, or that things like the zoom slider end up in one
> > application several releases before another.)
> +1
>
> > 4. *The website*
> > The website holds the key to all of these, because that's where we get
> both
> > volunteers and customers. The website needs to be completely rethought,
> > from the ground up. The homepage needs a big, bright, warm download
> button
> > and needs to be more resolution-independent and colorful (judging by the
> > Feng-GUI heat map, where the OOo logo is the most distinctive part of the
> > page) in general.
>
> It just was. Where was your input into that process?
>
If I remember correctly, that refresh was 2 years ago. And I was among the
people who called for a more visible, direct Download button, among other
things. But that never amounted to anything...

>
> > The whole site needs to be recategorized and made
> > browseable. All things related to projects (resources, mailing lists,
> > links, wiki pages, ...) need to be collected into one lucid, readable,
> > well-categorized project hub. Text needs to be drastically cut short,
> > projects and mailing lists that have been broken up into so many parts
> need
> > to be merged, and the new user routine has to be seriously simplified.
> > Seriously, there is just so much unnecessary complexity on the site right
> > now. And there needs to be an IdeaTorrent page, to provide a simple way
> to
> > collect ideas from people (because the current idea submission procedure
> is
> > too complicated and ineffective).
> >
> > That's it. Of course, there are still problems like compatibility and
> > feature parity with Office to tackle, but I'd say those are secondary
> > (we've got the major compatibility problems solved, I think).
>


> Trying to achieve feature parity with a competitor only ever makes a
> product a
> copycat, not an innovative leader.

I'm not suggesting we copy things from competitors, not at all. I agree that
we should be innovative and independent. I'm just saying that if there's
something one can do with MS Office, there should be an extension that can
do the same thing, perhaps differently.

> That is why the renaissance project GUI

should be offered as an addon only. I have it on good authority that people
> are resistant to change. The Office ribbon is one thing that has cause a
> lot
> of grief to customers with a good grasp on the traditional layout, This
> results in reduced output (how temporary this is, is debatable). No changes
> should be made without someone offering training. Where are the resources
> you
> propose for the training.

If you want OOo to be an innovative leader, you have to allow it to change.
Believe me, the Renaissance GUI has the customers' interests at heart. It's
a project that tries to create the best UI, not emulate the Ribbon
(although, sure, that may be what it seemed like at first). And for the
conservative/advanced users, there should be an extension for sure (plus the
OOo team stated, when they were first going into this, that they won't take
away the menu bar).
The Office Ribbon may have caused some grief for the advanced users, sure,
but it has improved the UX for the average user quite a bit.

>


> Changing a work site from Office 2003 to OO.o instead of Office 2007 was an
> opportunity that was mostly missed. Even then, training needs to be taken
> into the mix. I have heard of several half baked attempts to do just this
> that failed.
>
> > I'm only concerned about the speed we accomplish this with: things have
> > been moving pretty slowly around here, or so it seems.
> >
> > I think we could do things a lot faster with a website refresh. That's
> the
> > thing we want to do first, because it'll get us more contributors. I'd
> > especially appreciate the IdeaTorrent page.
> >
> > I'm also a bit concerned about online editing (with rising internet usage
> > and speeds, as well as the game-changing, web app-only Chrome OS), but
> I've
> > talked about that before...
>
> I hope you feel better after your rant. I do however see a lot of finger
> pointing without much practical help offered.
>
:) I feel great. I don't mean to criticize, I love OpenOffice.org and its
community is awesome.

I'm definitely willing to contribute (I can't contribute by coding, though)
-- just point me toward some meaningful task. All the projects seem kind of
stationary right now...

>
> --
> Michael
>



--
This is a site which donates money to a custom charity when you search
(Google or Yahoo!): http://www.neoaid.com/
From: "Clarke Rice" on 14 Apr 2010 01:22
> > The Renaissance project is shaping up really well. We need to get as many
> > people as possible to test it, to provide feedback, and to look into more
> > things we could do with the UI to make it more intuitive.
> Ah - the look like Office 2007 team.

I don't want to sound negative, but... the ribbon is a bad idea, imho.

There are far too many inconsistencies in the ribbon interface. Things move, depending on
what you are doing, for no obvious reason. Sometimes buttons are large, sometimes they
are small. Sometimes they have an icon - sometimes the same button does not. Back in my
day, 'Consistency' was drummed into you when you learnt UI design.

I've been teaching MSO for several years. Office 2007 has just caused headaches - to
students who use a machine set up with different resolution, who find the layout of MSO
changes on each machine. At least Office 2003 tried to keep all the buttons stuck in one
place.

I feel like an idiot when someone in a class asks a question and I cannot easily answer,
because I find the MSO 07 interface so counter-intuitive. I'm used to the file/edit/etc way of
working. Finding years' worth of teaching materials suddenly become obsolete because
Microsoft have decided they will does not make you want to stay with the product. At least
handouts prepared for Word 97 could be used with Word 2003, with minimal editing.

What do we say to organisations who have invested in training and manuals for OOo3.x if 4.x
looks weird - "oh, sorry, buy more stuff for the 'free' software"?

The OOo interface might benefit from a bit of sprucing up (they could do a lot worse than
Symphony IMO), but copying MSO will cause far more annoyances than it fixes. If an
interface overhaul is deemed appropriate, either give the user a choice of new or old
interface (a-la Winzip), or make sure a fork can continue to support the old interface with any
new features.

Those are my own thoughts anyway!

Clarke

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