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From: nurmi on 26 Jul 2010 22:55
For some reason the replies to this question do not appear although I
clicked on "Reply to the Group"
I have executed your suggestions and found the PC clean, the condition of
the capacitors around the processor socket appear to be in good condition,
and the memory tests OK as well. The problem continues at least once
shortly after booting up. After that it runs for hours without a problem.
I have one problem that you can fix: How to I stopp a chkdsk command? I
have searched the help programs without success.
Thanks
nurmi
"nurmi" <bogus(a)gmxs.de> wrote in message
news:%23WIuKhuKLHA.5932(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> I drive the Windows XP Home Edition SP 3 Until today it has
> performed the way it was designed.
> Three times today I worked with it as usual when about 30 to 45 minutes
> after booting up, the operating system
> stopped funtioning. The arrow disappeard, Control, Alt, Delete, did not
> wake up the Task Manager, turning
> a printer on or of brought no reaction from the PC, did not activate the
> red light . Re-booting worked normally.
> Then it occurred again. Any ideas?
> Nurmi
>


From: Paul on 27 Jul 2010 02:43
nurmi wrote:
> For some reason the replies to this question do not appear although I
> clicked on "Reply to the Group"
> I have executed your suggestions and found the PC clean, the condition of
> the capacitors around the processor socket appear to be in good condition,
> and the memory tests OK as well. The problem continues at least once
> shortly after booting up. After that it runs for hours without a problem.
> I have one problem that you can fix: How to I stopp a chkdsk command? I
> have searched the help programs without success.
> Thanks
> nurmi

Based on your symptoms right now, the next thing I'd try is swapping in
a spare ATX power supply, and retest. If this is a power supply related
issue, that might make a difference.

Testing power supplies, is too difficult to do effectively at home
(using only a multimeter). If your existing power supply had bad capacitors,
there might be short events of out of spec DC levels, just after the
power supply is started (that is what I experienced here with an Antec
brand supply). A multimeter is not the best instrument for detecting
things such as spikes on the DC rails, and other instruments are too
expensive, even to rent. You can buy a new power supply, for less than
a lot of other testing options.

*******

If you use Speedfan from almico.com , is the CPU temperature below 65C ?

http://www.almico.com/speedfan441.exe

For a stress test, you can try Prime95 from mersenne.org/freesoft . Their
site is not operating properly right now, so you'll have to wait until
later to get the file. The stress test does a mathematical calculation
with a known answer, and the program can detect if an error has been
made. This test increases the CPU temperature, and accelerates stability
testing. The test should run error free for hours - I accept a four
hour run, error free, as proof the computer is operating well. On an
unstable system, that test will stop in a couple seconds with an error.

Some stability problems, only happen when the CPU is idle. They could be
due to changing P-state or C-state on the processor, and operating it
at some combination of low frequency and low voltage (the CPU is tested
at the factory, to be stable over those conditions, so it is supposed
to work, and they include sufficient margin for aging). You could try
using the "Power Options" control panel and selected a power
scheme such as "Always On", in an attempt to keep the CPU running
in the highest state all the time. But I wouldn't bet on that fixing
it, or making any difference.

I've spent days and days in hardware labs, using logic analyzers on
computers we were building, to fix problems like this. It's very difficult
to find a root cause (unless the computer logs an event somewhere - many
failures are silent, because the computer dies before it can log anything).
Your chances of figuring it out with functional tests, are pretty
limited.

As an alternative test, you can boot a Linux LiveCD, such as Ubuntu from
ubuntu.com . It runs directly from the CD, and doesn't have to install
any software on the hard drive in order to work. The purpose of doing
this test, is to see if your OS is part of the problem or not. If
Linux remains running for hours (while you're web surfing with the
built-in browser), then perhaps some aspect of the OS is involved
after all (a WinXP problem, like a driver problem perhaps).

Good luck,
Paul

> "nurmi" <bogus(a)gmxs.de> wrote in message
> news:%23WIuKhuKLHA.5932(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> I drive the Windows XP Home Edition SP 3 Until today it has
>> performed the way it was designed.
>> Three times today I worked with it as usual when about 30 to 45 minutes
>> after booting up, the operating system
>> stopped funtioning. The arrow disappeard, Control, Alt, Delete, did not
>> wake up the Task Manager, turning
>> a printer on or of brought no reaction from the PC, did not activate the
>> red light . Re-booting worked normally.
>> Then it occurred again. Any ideas?
>> Nurmi

From: nurmi on 27 Jul 2010 23:08
Hi Paul,
Most of what your explanations are going a little over my head. AT 79 it's
difficult to learn new things. -:)
Right now I down loading the CD from Ubuntu. Thanks for that tip. I think
I can work that, and am looking forward to it.
What I don't undestand is the following:
"The purpose of doing this test, is to see if your OS is part of the problem
or not. If Linux remains runing for hours (while you're surfing with the
built-in browser) ((Explorer 7)) then perhaps some aspect of the OS is
involved after all. Should that not read: <if Linus stops running?>
And could you please tell me how I can stop the <check disk/f> during
boot-up. I did try to find an answer in the Help progr. No luck.
I will keep you posted on this.
When I booted the PC up today, all went well until I clicked on the Outlook
Prog. Outlook showed up, but after that nothing. I re-booted and am typing
to you now. For nearly a hour the PC is running well? Does that tell you
something new?
Have a nice day!
Nurmi
"Paul" <nospam(a)needed.com> wrote in message
news:i2lv6h$es0$1(a)speranza.aioe.org...
> nurmi wrote:
>> For some reason the replies to this question do not appear although I
>> clicked on "Reply to the Group"
>> I have executed your suggestions and found the PC clean, the condition
>> of the capacitors around the processor socket appear to be in good
>> condition, and the memory tests OK as well. The problem continues at
>> least once shortly after booting up. After that it runs for hours
>> without a problem.
>> I have one problem that you can fix: How to I stopp a chkdsk command? I
>> have searched the help programs without success.
>> Thanks
>> nurmi
>
> Based on your symptoms right now, the next thing I'd try is swapping in
> a spare ATX power supply, and retest. If this is a power supply related
> issue, that might make a difference.
>
> Testing power supplies, is too difficult to do effectively at home
> (using only a multimeter). If your existing power supply had bad
> capacitors,
> there might be short events of out of spec DC levels, just after the
> power supply is started (that is what I experienced here with an Antec
> brand supply). A multimeter is not the best instrument for detecting
> things such as spikes on the DC rails, and other instruments are too
> expensive, even to rent. You can buy a new power supply, for less than
> a lot of other testing options.
>
> *******
>
> If you use Speedfan from almico.com , is the CPU temperature below 65C ?
>
> http://www.almico.com/speedfan441.exe
>
> For a stress test, you can try Prime95 from mersenne.org/freesoft . Their
> site is not operating properly right now, so you'll have to wait until
> later to get the file. The stress test does a mathematical calculation
> with a known answer, and the program can detect if an error has been
> made. This test increases the CPU temperature, and accelerates stability
> testing. The test should run error free for hours - I accept a four
> hour run, error free, as proof the computer is operating well. On an
> unstable system, that test will stop in a couple seconds with an error.
>
> Some stability problems, only happen when the CPU is idle. They could be
> due to changing P-state or C-state on the processor, and operating it
> at some combination of low frequency and low voltage (the CPU is tested
> at the factory, to be stable over those conditions, so it is supposed
> to work, and they include sufficient margin for aging). You could try
> using the "Power Options" control panel and selected a power
> scheme such as "Always On", in an attempt to keep the CPU running
> in the highest state all the time. But I wouldn't bet on that fixing
> it, or making any difference.
>
> I've spent days and days in hardware labs, using logic analyzers on
> computers we were building, to fix problems like this. It's very difficult
> to find a root cause (unless the computer logs an event somewhere - many
> failures are silent, because the computer dies before it can log
> anything).
> Your chances of figuring it out with functional tests, are pretty
> limited.
>
> As an alternative test, you can boot a Linux LiveCD, such as Ubuntu from
> ubuntu.com . It runs directly from the CD, and doesn't have to install
> any software on the hard drive in order to work. The purpose of doing
> this test, is to see if your OS is part of the problem or not. If
> Linux remains running for hours (while you're web surfing with the
> built-in browser), then perhaps some aspect of the OS is involved
> after all (a WinXP problem, like a driver problem perhaps).
>
> Good luck,
> Paul
>
>> "nurmi" <bogus(a)gmxs.de> wrote in message
>> news:%23WIuKhuKLHA.5932(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> I drive the Windows XP Home Edition SP 3 Until today it has
>>> performed the way it was designed.
>>> Three times today I worked with it as usual when about 30 to 45 minutes
>>> after booting up, the operating system
>>> stopped funtioning. The arrow disappeard, Control, Alt, Delete, did not
>>> wake up the Task Manager, turning
>>> a printer on or of brought no reaction from the PC, did not activate the
>>> red light . Re-booting worked normally.
>>> Then it occurred again. Any ideas?
>>> Nurmi
>


From: Paul on 28 Jul 2010 01:28
nurmi wrote:
> Hi Paul,
> Most of what your explanations are going a little over my head. AT 79 it's
> difficult to learn new things. -:)

> Right now I down loading the CD from Ubuntu. Thanks for that tip. I think
> I can work that, and am looking forward to it.

> What I don't undestand is the following:
> "The purpose of doing this test, is to see if your OS is part of the problem
> or not. If Linux remains runing for hours (while you're surfing with the
> built-in browser) ((Explorer 7)) then perhaps some aspect of the OS is
> involved after all. Should that not read: <if Linus stops running?>
> And could you please tell me how I can stop the <check disk/f> during
> boot-up. I did try to find an answer in the Help progr. No luck.
> I will keep you posted on this.

> When I booted the PC up today, all went well until I clicked on the Outlook
> Prog. Outlook showed up, but after that nothing. I re-booted and am typing
> to you now. For nearly a hour the PC is running well? Does that tell you
> something new?

> Have a nice day!
> Nurmi

When I suggested the Linux LiveCD (of which Ubuntu is one example), it
was to see whether running an entirely separate operating system,
gives the same hardware symptoms or not.

For example, say this is a Windows XP problem. It shows up, as long as
Windows XP is running.

Now, I boot the computer with a Linux CD. Now, the computer is running
Linux software, and Windows XP is not involved. The hard drive contents
do not need to be used, while the Linux LiveCD is running. The Linux
LiveCD is self-sufficient, using its own software right off the
CD, and storing temporary information in system memory.

The Linux LiveCD has its own web browser. It could be called Firefox
for example. You'd look in the menus at the top left of the screen,
search for something like "Internet", and then see if there is
some web browser like Firefox in a sub-menu.

Now, if you really have a hardware problem, the Linux operating system
should "freeze" or crash just like Windows XP does.

If you find the Linux environment never encounters a freeze, after
using it for a while, then you might conclude from that, that
the Windows XP operating system, or something you've added to WinXP,
is somehow contributing to the "freeze" problem. You would then
toss the Linux CD in the corner, and do a Repair Install or the
like, of your WinXP on the hard drive. (Always back up your user
data, before doing something like that, so you don't use anything
valuable.) Then go back to testing a clean copy of WinXP.

Some pre-built computers (Dell/HP/Acer/Gateway), may not come with
a very nice re-installation method. That is why it is important to
backup any user data first, in case the re-installation messes up
your user data. You can purchase a USB external hard drive, and
using software from the hard drive manufacturer's web site, you
can store a copy of what is on your computer now, for safe keeping
later. Any time I'm doing something "dangerous" to my computer,
I store copies of the data, somewhere else. I have at least
five spare disks now, for such storage.

Paul
From: nurmi on 28 Jul 2010 22:30
Thanks Paul for a informative explanation.
I am stuck with burning the Unbutu Data onto a Cd. I am informed that the C
does not have enough free space for all your files. There is 656 MB free
space on the disk and 649 MB to be written. What to do?
Would you please instruct me how to stop the request for check Disk on
boot-up?
Nurmi
"Paul" <nospam(a)needed.com> wrote in message
news:i2of6j$6vk$1(a)speranza.aioe.org...
> nurmi wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>> Most of what your explanations are going a little over my head. AT 79
>> it's difficult to learn new things. -:)
>
>> Right now I down loading the CD from Ubuntu. Thanks for that tip. I
>> think I can work that, and am looking forward to it.
>
>> What I don't undestand is the following:
>> "The purpose of doing this test, is to see if your OS is part of the
>> problem or not. If Linux remains runing for hours (while you're surfing
>> with the built-in browser) ((Explorer 7)) then perhaps some aspect of the
>> OS is involved after all. Should that not read: <if Linus stops
>> running?>
>> And could you please tell me how I can stop the <check disk/f> during
>> boot-up. I did try to find an answer in the Help progr. No luck.
>> I will keep you posted on this.
>
>> When I booted the PC up today, all went well until I clicked on the
>> Outlook Prog. Outlook showed up, but after that nothing. I re-booted
>> and am typing to you now. For nearly a hour the PC is running well? Does
>> that tell you something new?
>
>> Have a nice day!
>> Nurmi
>
> When I suggested the Linux LiveCD (of which Ubuntu is one example), it
> was to see whether running an entirely separate operating system,
> gives the same hardware symptoms or not.
>
> For example, say this is a Windows XP problem. It shows up, as long as
> Windows XP is running.
>
> Now, I boot the computer with a Linux CD. Now, the computer is running
> Linux software, and Windows XP is not involved. The hard drive contents
> do not need to be used, while the Linux LiveCD is running. The Linux
> LiveCD is self-sufficient, using its own software right off the
> CD, and storing temporary information in system memory.
>
> The Linux LiveCD has its own web browser. It could be called Firefox
> for example. You'd look in the menus at the top left of the screen,
> search for something like "Internet", and then see if there is
> some web browser like Firefox in a sub-menu.
>
> Now, if you really have a hardware problem, the Linux operating system
> should "freeze" or crash just like Windows XP does.
>
> If you find the Linux environment never encounters a freeze, after
> using it for a while, then you might conclude from that, that
> the Windows XP operating system, or something you've added to WinXP,
> is somehow contributing to the "freeze" problem. You would then
> toss the Linux CD in the corner, and do a Repair Install or the
> like, of your WinXP on the hard drive. (Always back up your user
> data, before doing something like that, so you don't use anything
> valuable.) Then go back to testing a clean copy of WinXP.
>
> Some pre-built computers (Dell/HP/Acer/Gateway), may not come with
> a very nice re-installation method. That is why it is important to
> backup any user data first, in case the re-installation messes up
> your user data. You can purchase a USB external hard drive, and
> using software from the hard drive manufacturer's web site, you
> can store a copy of what is on your computer now, for safe keeping
> later. Any time I'm doing something "dangerous" to my computer,
> I store copies of the data, somewhere else. I have at least
> five spare disks now, for such storage.
>
> Paul


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