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From: Robert on 1 Aug 2008 20:48 On 1 Aug 2008 17:13:08 GMT, billg999(a)cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >In article <vgk494tjukl2l71smc3qd2bsjg1kk2kqau(a)4ax.com>, > Robert <no(a)e.mail> writes: >> On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:36:16 -0500, "Michael Mattias" <mmattias(a)talsystems.com> wrote: >> >>>"Robert" <no(a)e.mail> wrote in message >>>news:fhc3949gck3o6sp2p7rlh7echnbe9opbkt(a)4ax.com... >>>> In the brave new world of contract programming, unreasonable assignments >>>> are semi-common. >>>> I was once assigned to write a new program from scratch in a language (VB) >>>> I barely knew... >>> >>>Pray, how on earth were you selected as the contractor? >> >> The usual way -- for Cobol and SQL skills. Employers are overly selective during the >> hiring phase. Once a contractor is on board, that goes out the window; the only thing that >> counts is availability. >> >> "We need this program written in three days." >> "So get one of those VB programmers to write it." >> "They're busy on other assignments. You're the only one available." >> "But I don't know VB well enough to write it." >> "If you can't do it, we'll find someone who can." >> "You just said no one else was available." >> "We'll hire your replacement." >> >>>And why on earth did you - as a professional contractor - accept such an >>>assignment? >> >> They didn't ASK whether I wanted to do it. They said get it done or else. > >And you willingly worked for this flunky outfit? This "flunky outfit" was one of the world's largest and most profitable pharmaceutical companies. This is THE NORM in Fortune 100 companies. If you can't stomach it, you won't last in the contract programming business. Indians put up with it without complaint.
From: Robert on 1 Aug 2008 22:51 On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:49:34 -0700 (PDT), taoxianfeng(a)gmail.com wrote: >On 8?1?, ??10:15, Robert <n...(a)e.mail> wrote: >> On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:36:16 -0500, "Michael Mattias" <mmatt...(a)talsystems.com> wrote: >> >"Robert" <n...(a)e.mail> wrote in message >> >news:fhc3949gck3o6sp2p7rlh7echnbe9opbkt(a)4ax.com... >> >> In the brave new world of contract programming, unreasonable assignments >> >> are semi-common. >> >> I was once assigned to write a new program from scratch in a language (VB) >> >> I barely knew... >> >> >Pray, how on earth were you selected as the contractor? >> >> The usual way -- for Cobol and SQL skills. Employers are overly selective during the >> hiring phase. Once a contractor is on board, that goes out the window; the only thing that >> counts is availability. >> >> "We need this program written in three days." >> "So get one of those VB programmers to write it." >> "They're busy on other assignments. You're the only one available." >> "But I don't know VB well enough to write it." >> "If you can't do it, we'll find someone who can." >> "You just said no one else was available." >> "We'll hire your replacement." >> >> >And why on earth did you - as a professional contractor - accept such an >> >assignment? >> >> They didn't ASK whether I wanted to do it. They said get it done or else. >> >> >> I've seen worse, for example people assigned to work on huge >> >> mission-critical mainframe assembly language programs with two weeks' >> >> training in Cobol >> >> and no clue about assembly language on any machine.... >> >> >Worse yet: someone who does know the 'language product(s) of choice' >> >extremely well, but is clueless about the application. >> >> Understanding the application is the analyst's job. >> >> >I ran into this about ten years ago. I was doing some mapping of ANSI EDI >> >data (that's about 70% of what I do) for a client in Janesville WI. Part of >> >this mapping required an application run against an ERP system's database, >> >and since I was not (and still am not) familiar with the client's "language >> >product of choice" (Microsoft Visual BASIC) and at that time not any good >> >with Oracle/SQL, another contractor (from a 'major brand name consulting >> >firm in Wisconsin') was engaged to create that application. >> >> >I laid out for him what I wanted... simple text file containing five or six >> >delimited columns of data extracted from the ERP system's database, and the >> >conditions under which a record was to appear in that file. I would then map >> >that data into fully-enveloped ANSI X12 transaction sets. Simple, yes? >> >> Yes. Sounds like a half-hour job. >> >> >Well, this "consultant" ( a misuse of the word if ever there was one) took >> >it upon himself to try to map the data to ANSI himself. He had great >> >difficulty (like, that was a surprise?). But he did this without telling >> >anyone. >> >> That's not easy, unless he had third-party software to format EDI. >> >> >> >> >> >> >Three weeks later, the project was due; and I mean DUE. I had to tell the >> >client I was waiting on the required input, but once I had it I could map >> >the data in an afternoon. The other consultant was out that day, so I was >> >asked to look at his 'work product to date' and see if I could use what he >> >had and maybe make something out of what was done. (Did I mention, this >> >project was REALLY DUE?) . >> >> >DISASTER! Not only had the 'consultant' not been able to map the ANSI data, >> >he had not even completed the extraction of the required data from the ERP >> >database! >> >> >About 4:00 PM I sat down with the client's 'database guys' (employees of >> >client) who both knew Oracle pretty well, but did not know the application. >> >I showed them the text file I had orginally asked for, the tables in the >> >database where the data were located, and asked if they could create the >> >file using Oracle tools and utilities. They said they thought so .. so they >> >went off to play with the database, whilst I created the mapping code based >> >on their ability to create that input. >> >> There's no need for tools and utilities. It can be done in straight SQL. >> >> >They succeeded in creating the data. I succeeded in creating the ANSI ASC >> >X12 output. The required ANSI document was sent to the partner about 8:00 >> >PM. >> >> >Three weeks of consultant fees totally wasted by the client! I see things >> >like this and it drives me nuts: just like with lawyers, you get a couple of >> >bad apples and we ("real" consultants) ALL look bad. >> >> Sounds like bad management. There should have been milestones. For such a simple task, two >> day milestones sounds about right. >> >> >If I can accomplish one thing before I go thru that final checkout line, I >> >will see contractors and consultants regarded as true professionals - >> >because we have EARNED that respect. >> >> You're pissing into a gale force wind. The contracting scene is full of low-paid >> foreigners willing to try anything, and having NO bargaining power. Clients expect low >> productivity and quality. They don't care because three contractors cost less than one >> 'professional'. A big plus is the fact they don't talk back, don't point out management >> mistakes in public (you should hear what they say in private.) >> >> >So, um, Robert..... let's not accept any more contractor assignments for >> >which are not qualified, OK? >> >> If I refused to do taks for which I'm not qualified, I'd be looking for a new job every >> month or two. >> >> What's more difficult is following instructions to do things WRONG in an area where I'm >> MORE knowledgable than the boss. This occurs often in version control, which is my >> specialty. Managers often want simple-minded solutions based how they did it with flat >> files before they got version control. 'All ya gotta do is copy uncontrolled files over >> controlled ones. What's so hard about that?' When I diplomatically try to explain version >> control was created to STOP such abuse, it's like talking to the wall. Later, when they >> learn changes were overwritten, they say 'See, I told you the version control doesn't >> work. We even had an expert move the code.'- ???????????? - >> >> - ????????? - > >This post fits me perfectly...I'm just in such a "low-paid foreigner" >team that "willing to try anything". >We have dozens of people just available and no-qualified... You're like we were in the 1960s and 70s. We didn't 'know what we were doing,' we just did the best we could. >Most of us begin to learn shell just from May ,in such a JCL to shell >migration project... >Better with cobol and JCL,about a half members have several years >experience of mainframe cobol. >I think it's easier to find a Martian than a pro with 10 years >experience of mainframe cobol in CHINA, not to mention MicroFocus >SE... How much would they pay for a VERY experienced SE programmer? :) >That's also the big scene of Chinese software outsouring, my opinion. > >Frankly again, I'm sitting in the customer's office("on site") just >because I can say better Japanese and English... If our positions were reversed, if we had to speak fluent Nippongo and Mandarin, most Americans wouldn't try. I envy adventurers like you. (I lived in Japan for two years when I was your age.) >I learned Java,C#,C++,SQL...tons of courses in campus but mastered >nothing. >Chinese university education is becoming fast food and paper-making >machine...well,that's another topic again. It's the same here.
From: Robert on 1 Aug 2008 23:20 On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:35:25 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf(a)panix.com () wrote: >In article <vgk494tjukl2l71smc3qd2bsjg1kk2kqau(a)4ax.com>, >Robert <no(a)e.mail> wrote: >>On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:36:16 -0500, "Michael Mattias" >><mmattias(a)talsystems.com> wrote: > >[snip] > >>>Pray, how on earth were you selected as the contractor? >> >>The usual way -- for Cobol and SQL skills. Employers are overly >>selective during the >>hiring phase. Once a contractor is on board, that goes out the window; >>the only thing that >>counts is availability. >> >>"We need this program written in three days." >>"So get one of those VB programmers to write it." >>"They're busy on other assignments. You're the only one available." >>"But I don't know VB well enough to write it." >>"If you can't do it, we'll find someone who can." >>"You just said no one else was available." >>"We'll hire your replacement." > >'Now let me get this straight... you honestly believe that in three days >you can review resumes, call pimps, interview consultants, weed out the >deadwood, agree on a rate, get the guy through Security, assign him a >logon ID and still have time to code the program? Kelly says they can have someone on site tomorrow, at a very attractive rate. >'I hope you're very happy with whoever will be working with you on this... >because it isn't going to be me.' > >> >>>And why on earth did you - as a professional contractor - accept such an >>>assignment? >> >>They didn't ASK whether I wanted to do it. They said get it done or else. > >See above. In my experience it was either a hollow threat or a place I >did not want to work. It was not a hollow threat. Either you rise to the occasion or you're unemployed. >>>Three weeks of consultant fees totally wasted by the client! I see things >>>like this and it drives me nuts: just like with lawyers, you get a couple of >>>bad apples and we ("real" consultants) ALL look bad. >> >>Sounds like bad management. > >I've been a consultant/contractor/hired gun for a few decades now, Mr >Wagner, and I've yet to get a gig at a place which had what I would call >'good management'... the nature of my work, perhaps, in the same way that >physicians frequently see a lot more sick people than healthy ones. I concur. If it weren't for bad management, there would be no contractors. We'd have to find Real Jobs, which don't pay as well. >>>So, um, Robert..... let's not accept any more contractor assignments for >>>which are not qualified, OK? >> >>If I refused to do taks for which I'm not qualified, I'd be looking for >>a new job every month or two. > >Sometimes, Mr Wagner, it works out that one winds up having what one is >willing to accept. "People get and deserve what they settle for." >Our experiences, of course, may be different... I've >been asked to do stuff ('we need it yesterday!') for which I did not have >appropriate experience and my response has been 'I have stated, >unambiguously and explicitly, that this does not fall within my existing >skill-set; in order to get it done I will need (time/resources). If those >cannot be made available for me then I must, in all good conscience, >refuse the task just as a plumber would have to refuse a job-order for >rewiring a generator.' > >Word gets around. Word gets around that you're a crochety old guy, which is the kiss of death outside the mainframe world. I work with people in their 20s and 30s who think old people are too slow and out of style. They'll fire you in a heartbeat. It takes an effort to wow them.
From: Anonymous on 2 Aug 2008 08:10 In article <ati794tbvu02k92t3od5t0u6g6culuscob(a)4ax.com>, Robert <no(a)e.mail> wrote: >On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:35:25 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf(a)panix.com () wrote: > >>In article <vgk494tjukl2l71smc3qd2bsjg1kk2kqau(a)4ax.com>, >>Robert <no(a)e.mail> wrote: >>>On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:36:16 -0500, "Michael Mattias" >>><mmattias(a)talsystems.com> wrote: >> >>[snip] >> >>>>Pray, how on earth were you selected as the contractor? >>> >>>The usual way -- for Cobol and SQL skills. Employers are overly >>>selective during the >>>hiring phase. Once a contractor is on board, that goes out the window; >>>the only thing that >>>counts is availability. >>> >>>"We need this program written in three days." >>>"So get one of those VB programmers to write it." >>>"They're busy on other assignments. You're the only one available." >>>"But I don't know VB well enough to write it." >>>"If you can't do it, we'll find someone who can." >>>"You just said no one else was available." >>>"We'll hire your replacement." >> >>'Now let me get this straight... you honestly believe that in three days >>you can review resumes, call pimps, interview consultants, weed out the >>deadwood, agree on a rate, get the guy through Security, assign him a >>logon ID and still have time to code the program? > >Kelly says they can have someone on site tomorrow, at a very attractive rate. > >>'I hope you're very happy with whoever will be working with you on this... >>because it isn't going to be me.' It's your choice to believe a salesman over a programmer on a technical matter... but I hope you're very happy with whoever Kelly gives you because it isn't going to be me... oh, I said that already. >> >>> >>>>And why on earth did you - as a professional contractor - accept such an >>>>assignment? >>> >>>They didn't ASK whether I wanted to do it. They said get it done or else. >> >>See above. In my experience it was either a hollow threat or a place I >>did not want to work. > >It was not a hollow threat. Either you rise to the occasion or you're >unemployed. Managing to turn someone else's lack of planning or foresight into your own emergency is not what I would call 'rising to the occasion', Mr Wagner... it is what I would call 'paying for your own Vaseline'. See above, in my experience it was either a hollow threat or a place I did not want to work. > >>>>Three weeks of consultant fees totally wasted by the client! I see things >>>>like this and it drives me nuts: just like with lawyers, you get a couple of >>>>bad apples and we ("real" consultants) ALL look bad. >>> >>>Sounds like bad management. >> >>I've been a consultant/contractor/hired gun for a few decades now, Mr >>Wagner, and I've yet to get a gig at a place which had what I would call >>'good management'... the nature of my work, perhaps, in the same way that >>physicians frequently see a lot more sick people than healthy ones. > >I concur. ''We agree on something? One of us must be wrong!', he cried, Wildely.' >>>If I refused to do taks for which I'm not qualified, I'd be looking for >>>a new job every month or two. >> >>Sometimes, Mr Wagner, it works out that one winds up having what one is >>willing to accept. > >"People get and deserve what they settle for." Leaving out the 'sometimes it works out that' might be seen as changing the statement substantially. > >>Our experiences, of course, may be different... I've >>been asked to do stuff ('we need it yesterday!') for which I did not have >>appropriate experience and my response has been 'I have stated, >>unambiguously and explicitly, that this does not fall within my existing >>skill-set; in order to get it done I will need (time/resources). If those >>cannot be made available for me then I must, in all good conscience, >>refuse the task just as a plumber would have to refuse a job-order for >>rewiring a generator.' >> >>Word gets around. > >Word gets around that you're a crochety old guy, which is the kiss of >death outside the >mainframe world. Mr Wagner, you've made assertions about various 'worlds' in the past which have been shown to have a curious relationship - or lack thereof - with what others have experienced. >I work with people in their 20s and 30s who think old >people are too slow >and out of style. They'll fire you in a heartbeat. It takes an effort to >wow them. Mr Wagner, rest assured that you're not the only one who manages to do such things... or so my experience shows me. DD
From: Michael Mattias on 2 Aug 2008 08:18
"Robert" <no(a)e.mail> wrote in message news:tdb7949ojs15gu3kt2j6sraimchhaerpou(a)4ax.com... > This is THE NORM in Fortune 100 companies. If you can't stomach it, you > won't last in the > contract programming business. Indians put up with it without complaint. I guess I am just S-O-L, then. Oh, well, I'm sure there must be *some* opportunities for those of us of European ethnicity. MCM |