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From: Savageduck on 29 Jul 2010 17:54
On 2010-07-29 14:50:41 -0700, Doug McDonald
<mcdonald(a)scs.uiuc.edu.remove.invalid> said:

> On 7/29/2010 4:42 PM, Douglas Johnson wrote:
>> Savageduck<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The true value of these negatives, if proven to be genuine, lies in
>>> what they are, and who created them, not any pseudo "Adams" prints
>>> which might be produced from them.
>>
>> It is not clear to me that the owner of those negatives has the right to sell
>> prints from them. Ownership of the negatives is not necessarily the ownership
>> of the copyright. -- Doug
>
> But to enfore copyright, the real owner has to come forward.
>
> The Adams estate has already said they are not Adams' negatives.
> So THEY can't prevent sale by copyright. They might try to prevent them
> as being labeled as "from Ansel Adams's negatives". But it would
> be hard to stop "attributed to" Adams.
>
> Doug McDonald

....and that would mean they could never have the asking price of
genuine Adams prints, which they can never be.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

From: John McWilliams on 30 Jul 2010 12:55
Savageduck wrote:
> On 2010-07-29 14:42:26 -0700, Douglas Johnson <post(a)classtech.com> said:
>
>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The true value of these negatives, if proven to be genuine, lies in
>>> what they are, and who created them, not any pseudo "Adams" prints
>>> which might be produced from them.
>>
>> It is not clear to me that the owner of those negatives has the right
>> to sell
>> prints from them. Ownership of the negatives is not necessarily the
>> ownership
>> of the copyright. -- Doug
>
> This is somewhat like finding working sketches of "The Nightwatch" or Da
> Vinci's "Adoration of The Magi".

Except these are plates that AA chose to not print, and not part of an
integral process/work flow as DaVinci's.

--
John McWilliams
From: Savageduck on 30 Jul 2010 13:09
On 2010-07-30 09:55:52 -0700, John McWilliams <jpmcw(a)comcast.net> said:

> Savageduck wrote:
>> On 2010-07-29 14:42:26 -0700, Douglas Johnson <post(a)classtech.com> said:
>>
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The true value of these negatives, if proven to be genuine, lies in
>>>> what they are, and who created them, not any pseudo "Adams" prints
>>>> which might be produced from them.
>>>
>>> It is not clear to me that the owner of those negatives has the right to sell
>>> prints from them. Ownership of the negatives is not necessarily the ownership
>>> of the copyright. -- Doug
>>
>> This is somewhat like finding working sketches of "The Nightwatch" or
>> Da Vinci's "Adoration of The Magi".
>
> Except these are plates that AA chose to not print, and not part of an
> integral process/work flow as DaVinci's.

Perhaps a broad, or faulty analogy on my part. The bottom line is the
plates have, as you said, never been printed by AA, or selected for
printing by AA, so the possibility of reproducing an "Ansel Adams"
print from them, even if they prove to be genuine is not possible. The
possibility of getting "new Adams" prints ended in 1984 when he died.

Any prints made from those plates could not be sold as "Ansel Adams"
prints. The true value of those plates, if proven to be genuine, is in
what they are, not what might be printed from them.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

From: Gary Edstrom on 30 Jul 2010 14:06
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:55:52 -0400, John McWilliams <jpmcw(a)comcast.net>
wrote:

>Savageduck wrote:
>> On 2010-07-29 14:42:26 -0700, Douglas Johnson <post(a)classtech.com> said:
>>
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The true value of these negatives, if proven to be genuine, lies in
>>>> what they are, and who created them, not any pseudo "Adams" prints
>>>> which might be produced from them.
>>>
>>> It is not clear to me that the owner of those negatives has the right
>>> to sell
>>> prints from them. Ownership of the negatives is not necessarily the
>>> ownership
>>> of the copyright. -- Doug
>>
>> This is somewhat like finding working sketches of "The Nightwatch" or Da
>> Vinci's "Adoration of The Magi".
>
>Except these are plates that AA chose to not print, and not part of an
>integral process/work flow as DaVinci's.

The bottom line is that if there is a lot of money involved, lawyers and
lawsuits are going to be involved, no matter what previous case law may
show. That's simply a fact of life. The side with more money may be
able to simply intimidate the other party into submission.

Gary
From: Allen on 31 Jul 2010 09:50
HocusPocus wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:07:00 GMT, "MC" <any(a)any.any> wrote:
>
>> HocusPocus wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:13:53 -0700, Gary Edstrom
>>> <GEdstrom(a)PacBell.Net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:58:44 -0700 (PDT), RichA
>>>> <rander3127(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/celebrity.news.gossip/07/28/ansel.adams.negative.dispute/index.html?iref=NS1
>>>>> "I have sent people to prison for the rest of their lives for far
>>>>> less evidence than I have seen in this case," said evidence and
>>>>> burden of proof expert Manny Medrano, who was hired by Norsigian
>>>>> to help authenticate the plates. "In my view, those photographs
>>>>> were done by Ansel Adams."
>>>> What do you want to bet that if they are indeed genuine, the Ansel
>>>> Adams heirs will sue to get them back as stolen property?
>>> Gary, in that clip his grandson says they're not genuine. The
>>> handwriting is not his grandmother's and the spelling mistakes don't
>>> fit with her spending lots of time at Yosemite. I must be missing
>>> something. How will they be confirmed as genuine? It IS fascinating
>>> stuff! :)
>> The whole thing stinks of jealousy. The Adams clan don't like the fact
>> that this "stranger" has become very rich on the back of their famous
>> relative.
>>
>> MC
> Reverse psychology would say the relatives should claim they are genuine,
> let the guy make money off them because then, based on the valuation of
> these 'new' negatives, the family holdings will be worth multimillions more
> than today. Win, Win. No?
>
>
>
So you are saying that increasing the supply of something will drive up
the price? Let's say that someone should discover that the entire Rocky
Mountains are pure covered by a thin layer of stone; would this drive
the price of gold up even higher? Of course not--it would push it down
to something like the price of iron.
Allen
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