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From: Dominik Brodowski on 12 Aug 2010 16:00
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:48:48PM -0700, Brian Swetland wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Felipe Contreras
> <felipe.contreras(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Not Ubuntu, not Fedora, not MeeGo, not anyone with a typical
> > user-space seems to be having this problem. I can argue to you that
> > this problem can be solved in easier ways, but instead I will argue
> > that perhaps we should wait for somebody besides Android to complain
> > about it before providing a "solution". Because after all, what good
> > is a "solution" provided by the kernel, if the user-space is not going
> > to use it, ever.
>
> I'm curious, when does Android count as a user of the kernel? I
> gather that volume of sales or users doesn't count. Do we have to
> include some percentage of "desktop" Linux?
>
> If we're an undesirable second-class citizen, why do people care that
> "android is forking the kernel"?
>
> I guess I don't understand,

I guess I don't, either -- there are some parts of the kernel used by only a
handful of users... and here we speak about million users...

Best,
Dominik
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From: Felipe Contreras on 13 Aug 2010 06:50
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Dominik Brodowski
<linux(a)dominikbrodowski.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:48:48PM -0700, Brian Swetland wrote:
>> I guess I don't understand,
>
> I guess I don't, either -- there are some parts of the kernel used by only a
> handful of users... and here we speak about million users...

A driver that sits in a corner and doesn't show in the 'menuconfig' of
most people and is used by small fraction of user-space applications
(perhaps even 0) is just fine. But we are talking of something
centric, that can be enabled on all systems, and that affects all
user-space.

--
Felipe Contreras
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From: Alan Cox on 13 Aug 2010 06:50
> I guess I don't, either -- there are some parts of the kernel used by only a
> handful of users... and here we speak about million users...

Because in general the bits for a small user base don't leak out into
other bits of the kernel. It's a much higher barrier if you want to
affect other people's code because it is asking everyone else to help
maintain stuff they don't need.

That's not to say sometimes its not the right choice, but I still find it
remarkable that nobody else but Android seems to want it,.
Alan
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From: Joe Perches on 13 Aug 2010 12:10
On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 17:57 +0200, Dominik Brodowski wrote:
> Because millions of users are happy -- with Android, including suspend
> blockers.

I'd guess there are on the order of 20 users
that have built and deployed a kernel with
Android suspend blockers support.

The total deployed systems is relatively meaningless.

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From: Felipe Contreras on 13 Aug 2010 12:20
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Dominik Brodowski
<linux(a)dominikbrodowski.net> wrote:
>> >> Not Ubuntu, not Fedora, not MeeGo, not anyone with a typical
>> >> user-space seems to be having this problem. I can argue to you that
>> >> this problem can be solved in easier ways, but instead I will argue
>> >> that perhaps we should wait for somebody besides Android to complain
>> >> about it before providing a "solution". Because after all, what good
>> >> is a "solution" provided by the kernel, if the user-space is not going
>> >> to use it, ever.
>> >
>> > At this point in the discussion, I am quite prepared to believe that you
>> > will avoid using suspend blockers, and that you will further do everything
>> > in your power to prevent anyone else from using suspend blockers.  ;-)
>>
>> I'm not tying anybody's hands.
>>
>> How are people using real-time linux if it's not on mainline? Well,
>> duuh, you apply the patches. If say Fedora was interested on it, they
>> could apply the patches, and see for themselves. People do that all
>> the time, with the mm tree, with Con Koliva's patches, etc. Once
>> people are happy with the results, things get merged. Why should this
>> be any different?
>
> Because millions of users are happy -- with Android, including suspend
> blockers.

I explicitly said somebody besides Android, specifically, somebody
with a typical linux ecosystem. You are not addressing the argument at
hand, that nobody else wants to tackle the issue this way, thus only
making the discussion more difficult.

--
Felipe Contreras
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