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From: WTShaw on 24 Apr 2010 12:26
On Apr 23, 4:24 am, Earl_Colby_Pottinger
<earlcolby.pottin...(a)sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Apr 23, 4:10 am, Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.s...(a)t-online.de> wrote:
>
> > WTShaw wrote:
>
> > [snip]...  Occam's Razor is as much a call to find simpler means as
>
> > > anything else, not to avoid them.
>
> > I personally understand the essential value of Occam's Razor in this:
> > If one could explain something in terms of simpler (to understand)
> > terms/concepts and ways, then do that instead of explanations more
> > complicated or even obscure.
>
> > M. K. Shen
>
> And this why I never bother reading anything that wtshaw posts, If
> there is a simple way and a complex way to describe anything, he will
> post an even *MORE* complex way using terms that he will not define
> (or define in a way that tells you nothing about the terms).  Basic
> words, his posts are a waste of electrons.

More data follows for you, but I realize you are scientifically
challenged
and might not be able to comprehend it:



Some Test Vectors for Small Plain Pizza (Key=Pt):
(Save in a Monospaced Font) (Enc/DecFinal: ROT13)

The Pizza concept is simple enough and all its security
is found totally in the working key, many permutations
are utilized, one at a time in sequence for processing
a single letter. The actual encryption and decryption are
simple, find the beginning letter in each permutation and
offset to the new character. Since I'm using ROT13 for the
initial offset, Encrypt and Decrypt are equivalent for
Set26, and not for the others.

Getting the permutations in Pizza is something publically
new to most, using a counted-hash for each based
on the proceeding one. To load the first permutation
requires one pass through the generation procedure. Then,
with subsequent generations, the permutations are made
by hashing a sequential portion of the text-key per the
examples given below.

For the example, the following is used both a key source
and plaintext, something tat you would never do in
standard practice:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of
America and to the republic for which it stands, one
nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all."
----
Set26in abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
(1) pxrfelgasthmqbvdiywzojkucn Set26out KeyLength=128

"q zuxxlr cuftpudqtm iq lvy ekfd co nfp gkzyar yibgvd ax
zhjczpw bsx ba ypp iojhlunz hrh lkmfe we hnvfju, vrg
tuhpwh, jjkkh cjp, bzfv asqtdjw fqy xhjbciu wie tcj."

ipledgeallegiancetotheflag jparomfvsteqkdnclyuwzgxhib i 1
oftheunitedstatesofamerica ovqhcxziklwtdjnyemspfurbga p 2
andtotherepublicforwhichit aeydojqmrspugwixfvbthkzcln l 3
standsonenationundergodwit ubakogmzycetfrlwnjdpisqxvh e 4
hlibertyandjusticeforallip hlsbzfcgajpduveqmytorkwnxi d 5
ledgeallegiancetotheflagof lqeamdsbyjiuxgtrwkhofzvpnc g 6
theunitedstatesofamericaan rfltpxwqjikmheuzvdyaogcsbn e 7
---
Set27in /abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
(1) q/xsihnjaetukorfvglbywczpmd Set27out KeyLength=158

"o nwpmjp wtjjqjqmpu /a xqr vnjt tm eux ifohqw iwipxx km
fehfrl/ yom hj ssm bbbtohtu hyh cikvz /k tjgktd, upf
uliaip, fapzf qjj, jfzk nmlnhzl twz fefxcoa nd/ usd."

i/pledge/allegiance/to/the/ hqmwudbk/eczoyntaprxvlsgjfi i 1
flag/of/the/united/states/o jvrgwzfunh/dqyitemblaxpcsko p 2
f/america/and/to/the/republ rfxbtjqkpucwdnyohize/vmsgla l 3
ic/for/which/it/stands/one/ ytzfcreqdojn/hxvgbapklmwuis e 4
nation/under/god/with/liber jkyudnhw/eczxaoqvmitbglsprf d 5
ty/and/justice/for/all/i/pl iknaduhjystvxzwfqr/obgemcpl g 6
edge/allegiance/to/the/flag /ufotncpbqiakmgvjwxyhezsldr e 7
----
Set31in /abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.,?!
(1) r.tedmf/uvgnsaxch,y?pikwbozl!qj Set31out KeyLength=132

"a yt,cy! sidnabu?vm rj ?og prde ay ?ss ?fjnnc wkugx, ?b
lpq,lfm tdj fm rmk sw.tsrck ?!t vr,?p zj mmfhqvq ero
em.oy/m mjehs kyby azby qtxodhj lgq cz,,pq! ,cx vyns"

ipledgeallegiancetotheflagofthe wklevsdh!qmab,c?fro.p/gjyxzntiu i 1
unitedstatesofamericaandtothere u/tjwhsyaxkd.fbmlri?,cg!zpnqeov p 2
publicforwhichitstands,onenatio !ufblc.emwhrgsi/ytxzda,opqnkj?v l 3
n,undergod,withlibertyandjustic kp!jdcwrnaqestmbif.hxyo?,vugz/l e 4
eforall.ipledgeallegiancetothef n.ojcugxikzap,qw/levfrd!sm?byth d 5
lagoftheunitedstatesofamericaan qkgov?hwunxb/d!yztlsjfamericp,. g 6
dtotherepublicforwhichitstands, nbq/gjaf,huyeclkm?orpvidz!swxt. e 7
-----
"i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of
america and to the republic for which it stands, one
nation, under god, with liberty and justice for all."
----
Note that compression could have been done to preserve capitalization
but was skipped to keep the examples as clean as possible.

From: Mok-Kong Shen on 24 Apr 2010 12:57
WTShaw wrote:
> Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
>> WTShaw wrote:
>>
>> [snip]... Occam's Razor is as much a call to find simpler means as
>>
>>> anything else, not to avoid them.
>>
>> I personally understand the essential value of Occam's Razor in this:
>> If one could explain something in terms of simpler (to understand)
>> terms/concepts and ways, then do that instead of explanations more
>> complicated or even obscure.

>
> OK, look at the following bar graphs and mind that the classes in the
> second one are smaller. If the same thresholds in the second were as
> the first, the second one would be fairly much a straight horizontal
> line.
[snip]

I don't understand what this has to do with Occam's Razor. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

M. K. Shen
From: WTShaw on 25 Apr 2010 13:36
On Apr 24, 11:57 am, Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.s...(a)t-online.de> wrote:
> WTShaw wrote:
> > Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
> >> WTShaw wrote:
>
> >> [snip]...  Occam's Razor is as much a call to find simpler means as
>
> >>> anything else, not to avoid them.
>
> >> I personally understand the essential value of Occam's Razor in this:
> >> If one could explain something in terms of simpler (to understand)
> >> terms/concepts and ways, then do that instead of explanations more
> >> complicated or even obscure.
>
> > OK, look at the following bar graphs and mind that the classes in the
> > second one are smaller. If the same thresholds in the second were as
> > the first, the second one would be fairly much a straight horizontal
> > line.
>
> [snip]
>
> I don't understand what this has to do with Occam's Razor. See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor
>
> M. K. Shen

Just everything as a rather simple approach here is demonstrated. If
you can demonstrate a result, as I have, this is a deed and not just
words.
From: Mok-Kong Shen on 25 Apr 2010 14:16
WTShaw:
> Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
>> WTShaw wrote:
>>> Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
>>>> WTShaw wrote:
>>
>>>> [snip]... Occam's Razor is as much a call to find simpler means as
>>
>>>>> anything else, not to avoid them.
>>
>>>> I personally understand the essential value of Occam's Razor in this:
>>>> If one could explain something in terms of simpler (to understand)
>>>> terms/concepts and ways, then do that instead of explanations more
>>>> complicated or even obscure.
>>
>>> OK, look at the following bar graphs and mind that the classes in the
>>> second one are smaller. If the same thresholds in the second were as
>>> the first, the second one would be fairly much a straight horizontal
>>> line.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> I don't understand what this has to do with Occam's Razor. See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor
>>
>
> Just everything as a rather simple approach here is demonstrated. If
> you can demonstrate a result, as I have, this is a deed and not just
> words.

The present argument point concerns Occam's Razor. In particular I
criticized your employing the term bootstrapping, which I consider to
be a redundant concept in the sense of Occam's Razor. why didn't you
answer "directly" on that?

M. K. Shen


From: WTShaw on 26 Apr 2010 00:50
On Apr 25, 1:16 pm, Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.s...(a)t-online.de> wrote:
> WTShaw:
>
>
>
> > Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
> >> WTShaw wrote:
> >>> Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
> >>>> WTShaw wrote:
>
> >>>> [snip]...  Occam's Razor is as much a call to find simpler means as
>
> >>>>> anything else, not to avoid them.
>
> >>>> I personally understand the essential value of Occam's Razor in this:
> >>>> If one could explain something in terms of simpler (to understand)
> >>>> terms/concepts and ways, then do that instead of explanations more
> >>>> complicated or even obscure.
>
> >>> OK, look at the following bar graphs and mind that the classes in the
> >>> second one are smaller. If the same thresholds in the second were as
> >>> the first, the second one would be fairly much a straight horizontal
> >>> line.
>
> >> [snip]
>
> >> I don't understand what this has to do with Occam's Razor. See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor
>
> > Just everything as a rather simple approach here is demonstrated.  If
> > you can demonstrate a result, as I have, this is a deed and not just
> > words.
>
> The present argument point concerns Occam's Razor. In particular I
> criticized your employing the term bootstrapping, which I consider to
> be a redundant concept in the sense of Occam's Razor. why didn't you
> answer "directly" on that?
>
> M. K. Shen

Bootstrapping is a way of saying that here is a method that alone is
insufficient and an algorithm it might complements is also
insufficient. Then, the logical thing is to combine them to really get
something good. Consider a simple flaw in Pizza that just like many
ciphers that were considered really good, it does not allow for a
ciphertext character to be the same as the plaintext one. However
many ciphers do allow that and are otherwise not good at presenting an
acceptable frequency table. The graphs tell the story that the method
does what I want it to. The resulting algorithm is a melding of the
two to a better end. Where as one algorithm stays with one set to
work well, the other need not which allows all sorts of varied
character and format inputs. The easiest way may not be the best.

Now, playing with base 65 , we can see that it is fair but
insufficient. For message use, perhaps adequate, so the dictum of
Occam's Razor would call to use it for such limited purposes simply
but not for high volume with one key because it would likely not be
really adequate for that. Scope is always a factor whereas one size
not only might not fit all, it never does. Perspective and purpose are
always factors in anything.

I was involved in discussions today on the uses of the words "as" and
"so" which in a strict sense address two different qualities, "as"
refers to a pattern that might be continuous and/or on going whereas
"so" refers to some limit. Therefore, "as far as" and "so far as"
mean different things. Neither does the job of the other but common
usage tends to ignore that. In English there are subtile distinctions
that can matter. In cryptography, there are subtile distinctions that
also matter, purpose and/or expectation driven. Ignoring the need for
diversity to address individual circumstances and some cosmic need as
one is illogical.
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