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From: bae on 18 Jul 2010 10:58
In article <d195e290-e9d0-4d90-b3da-c5a83ecf3072(a)i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
Lee Olsen <paleocity(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Since bipedalism showed up in the fossil record millions of years
>before exotic rock or stone tools, it can be safely assumed running
>occured long before proficiency at throwing was developed.

You don't need to throw tools -- you can throw anything.

When Mr. Plutonium first asserted his theory, many people pointed out
that chimps can throw accurately and with power for substantial
distances. Many people who have worked with chimps have observed that
they enjoy throwing whatever they have, especially feces, at their
keepers.

Mr. Plutonium responded in his usual unbalanced manner with scorn,
denial and assertions that he is the King of Science, so anything he
says is true, and any contradictions come only from weak minded jealous
fools and corrupt so-called scientists.

After a while, everybody just ignored him. I recommend you do the same,
but of course, you can do as you like. Meanwhile, watch out for those
"safe assumptions".

From: Claudius Denk on 18 Jul 2010 14:13
On Jul 18, 5:48 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:

> Since bipedalism showed up in the fossil record millions of years
> before exotic rock or stone tools, it can be safely assumed running
> occured long before proficiency at throwing was developed.

This statement is pretty funny. It's obvious that you are letting
your preconcieved notions dictate your conclusions. You are so
obsessed with this notion of running (long distance I assume) that you
are trying to bend the evidence to fit with this notion.

Yes it is true that, as you stated, "bipedalism showed up in the
fossil record millions of years before exotic rock or stone tools."
But you are wrong to conclude that this dictates the conclusion that,
"running occurred long before proficiency at throwing was developed."
My Ecological Gatekeeper Hypothesis indicates how rock-throwing, stick-
wielding (long before the development of "exotic rock or stone tools")
would have been highly adaptive in the earliest years of hominid
evolution. More importantly, this hypothesis also sets the stage for
understanding the selective factors that underlie the observation that
humans/hominids are the most communal species in existence. Obviously
the same cannot be said for theories that focus on running/walking.

Scientists must always remain dispassionately objective when
interpreting evidence.
From: Claudius Denk on 18 Jul 2010 14:44
On Jul 18, 7:58 am, b...(a)cs.toronto.no-uce.edu wrote:
> In article <d195e290-e9d0-4d90-b3da-c5a83ecf3...(a)i18g2000pro.googlegroups..com>,
> Lee Olsen  <paleoc...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Since bipedalism showed up in the fossil record millions of years
> >before exotic rock or stone tools, it can be safely assumed running
> >occured long before proficiency at throwing was developed.
>
> You don't need to throw tools -- you can throw anything.

Right.

> When Mr. Plutonium first asserted his theory, many people pointed out
> that chimps can throw accurately and with power for substantial
> distances.  Many people who have worked with chimps have observed that
> they enjoy throwing whatever they have, especially feces, at their
> keepers.

Yes, but even then they take a bipedal stance to do so. Moreover, you
don't need to observe chimps to realize that throwing while standing
is much more effective than throwing while sitting or crouching.
Anybody can do their own experiment that will obviate this.

> Mr. Plutonium responded in his usual unbalanced manner with scorn,
> denial and assertions that he is the King of Science, so anything he
> says is true, and any contradictions come only from weak minded jealous
> fools and corrupt so-called scientists.

Lee Olsen reacts in a similar manner when anybody questions his vague
notion that long distance running preceded rock throwing.

> After a while, everybody just ignored him.  I recommend you do the same,
> but of course, you can do as you like.  

I see no reason to ignore him, nor Lee Olsen for that matter.
Overlooking what appears to be a deep-seated ignorance of evolutionary
processes, Mr Plutonium is, at least, arguing from the evidence,
albeit to fit his preconcieved notion. Mr. Olsen, on the otherhand,
seems to want to only dismiss or bend the evidence to fit his
preconcieved notions by way of wallowing in vagueness. Neither of
them, it seems, is emotionally capable of doing much more than whining
when other don't blindly accept their assertions.

Evolutionary theory, especially when it involves our own species, is
an extremely emotional issue. It is the rare scientists that has the
wherewithall to remain dispassionately objective when dealing with
this subject.

> Meanwhile, watch out for those
> "safe assumptions".

Yep. If Olsen's notion really was "safe" he wouldn't have to tell us
it is safe.
From: Lee Olsen on 18 Jul 2010 18:45
On Jul 18, 7:58 am, b...(a)cs.toronto.no-uce.edu wrote:
> In article <d195e290-e9d0-4d90-b3da-c5a83ecf3...(a)i18g2000pro.googlegroups..com>,
> Lee Olsen  <paleoc...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Since bipedalism showed up in the fossil record millions of years
> >before exotic rock or stone tools, it can be safely assumed running
> >occured long before proficiency at throwing was developed.
>
> You don't need to throw tools -- you can throw anything.

Yes, and Dr. Birute Galdikas observed orangs tossing branches at her.
So what? Do you see any orangs on the New York Yankees pitching staff?



>
> When Mr. Plutonium first asserted his theory, many people pointed out
> that chimps can throw accurately and with power for substantial
> distances.

Which is a flat-out lie.

> Many people who have worked with chimps have observed that
> they enjoy throwing whatever they have, especially feces, at their
> keepers.

And this lie is then passed along by even dumber news media.


>
> Mr. Plutonium responded in his usual unbalanced manner with scorn,
> denial and assertions that he is the King of Science, so anything he
> says is true, and any contradictions come only from weak minded jealous
> fools and corrupt so-called scientists.


The reason Mr. Plutonium posts here is because he has nothing
worthwhile
to submit to a journal.

>
> After a while, everybody just ignored him.  I recommend you do the same..

I recomend you mind your own business.

> but of course, you can do as you like.  Meanwhile, watch out for those
> "safe assumptions".

You mean watch out for those anonymous pseuds claiming "safe
assumptions"
that have no clue about on-the-ground evidence?

Now why don't you run along and go find a library that has Barbara
Isaac's
paper on throwing, rather than listening to people who don't know an
out
fielder from a goat.
From: Lee Olsen on 18 Jul 2010 18:51
On Jul 18, 11:44 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jul 18, 7:58 am, b...(a)cs.toronto.no-uce.edu wrote:
>
> > In article <d195e290-e9d0-4d90-b3da-c5a83ecf3...(a)i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
> > Lee Olsen  <paleoc...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >Since bipedalism showed up in the fossil record millions of years
> > >before exotic rock or stone tools, it can be safely assumed running
> > >occured long before proficiency at throwing was developed.
>
> > You don't need to throw tools -- you can throw anything.
>
> Right.

Yep, you can spit on a lion too, so what?

>
> > When Mr. Plutonium first asserted his theory, many people pointed out
> > that chimps can throw accurately and with power for substantial
> > distances.  Many people who have worked with chimps have observed that
> > they enjoy throwing whatever they have, especially feces, at their
> > keepers.
>
> Yes, but even then they take a bipedal stance to do so.

Yep, every time they throw they use the bipedal stance.
Thanks Jim.

 
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