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From: Jim Cochrane on 21 Jan 2010 05:38
On 2010-01-15, Dave C. <noway(a)nohow.never> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 20:00:17 +0000 (UTC)
> Jim Cochrane <allergic-to-spam(a)no-spam-allowed.invalid> wrote:

(Sorry for the late response. I went out of town on Friday and got
back Tuesday night. I read the responses to my post while I was gone,
but didn't have write access.)

>> I'm planning on building a computer system that will have as its most
>> important use a system for music composition. (Actually, I will pay
>> someone to build it for me, once I've gotten the components.) This
>> will be a Linux system (Fedora 12). My current goal (which might
>> change once I get more data) is a system that meets the following
>> requirements:
>>
>> - 24GB memory capacity, with 12GB installed at first
>
> Your music composition system, even if a professional use machine, will
> likely never use more than 4GB of RAM. Even if you are multi-tasking
> apps. manipulating music files, I doubt you'd ever use more than 8GB. I
> would strongly suggest you start with 6 or 8GB of RAM. I'll be shocked
> if that's not enough, but you can always upgrade later in the unlikely
> event that you don't have enough RAM.

I think that's good advice. I'll probably sometimes be running
non-music memory-hungry apps. (such as Firefox) at the same time the
music apps are running, but you may be right that I'm still not likely
to use over 8GB; and if that turns out to be not true, as you say, I can
add more at that point.

>> - Total cost not much more than $2000
>
> That's easy, unless you insist on a core i7 processor (there are better
> processors available for much less money) and three times as much RAM as
> you actually need.
>
>>
>> - Intel CPU [probably core i7]
>
> Why? They are so over-priced, they are ridiculous. Compare a 3.2GHz
> quad-core AMD Phenom II with a 3.2GHz i7 at the same performance level
> (exactly) and you'll see what I mean.

OK. After reading this, I did some online research - reading reviews,
price comparisons, etc. You're right about the higher-end i7s being
very expensive. If I remember right, I saw 940s listed at around $500
and 950s at around $570.

You're probably going to disagree with this, but I'm thinking that a
core i7 920 will probably be a good choice - because it is listed at
around $270 (around half the price of the 940 and 950) and appears to in
most cases (from the benchmark-reviews I looked at) perform not far
behind the more expensive models. And also because (again, from what I
read in these reviews) it appears to perform better than the Phenom II
in audio processing. (I'd cite the URLs for the reviews, but I didn't
save them. I can probably find them again if needed.)

Another reason I'm leaning toward Intel is that the with last AMD system
I bought the CPU (Athlon) died - it only lasted about 4 or 5 years.
The cause may have been the case - a poor cooling/ventilation system,
so this bias might be bogus; but I'm not sure the chip itself was not
a factor, and so it influences my thinking.

[I'm preparing for your response saying that $270 is still quite high
and Phenom II models are close enough to the i7 920 in performance for
the difference not to matter, and that motherboards for the Phenom II
are significantly cheaper - or something like that. :-)]

>> ...
>>
>> Here's my "example" system. I "put" it together fairly quickly, so
>> I'm not completely sure all parts are compatible with each other
>> (especially, I'm not sure if the case is compatible with the
>> motherboard). I think the most important components to get right are
>> the motherboard, CPU, and video card. IMO, the case and power supply
>> are almost as important.
>>
>> Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD5 - motherboard - ATX - iX58 - LGA1366 Socket: ~
>> $270
>
> You can get a Gigabyte brand AM3 socket board for about half that price.
> But OK so far.
>
>> [http://www.google.com/products/catalog?sourceid=chrome&q=GA-EX58-UD5&um=1&ie=
>> UTF-8&cid=11611052873720181702&ei=eCBQS5WEIYmqNo79vI8J&sa=X&oi=
>> product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBsQ8wIwAg#ps-sellers]
>>
>> case: Cooler Master HAF 922: ~$110
>>
>> core i7 950: ~$570
>
> If you want better performance in a CPU, you could get a Phenom II X4
> 965. At a third of the price!!!
>
>>
>> WD Caviar Green 2 TB Internal hard drive: ~$180
>> [alt: Hitachi Deskstar 2 TB Internal hard drive - about 155 dollars]
>
> OK, I'll forgive you for that blunder. Green hard drives are garbage.
> But they are quite popular due to their low price. WD is good, but get
> a blue one (or a black one). Whatever hard drive you get should be NOT
> GREEN, 7200RPM and have 16MB or 32MB of cache.

Yes, these green drives are new to me. Thanks for the heads up - I will
avoid them.

>> RAM - Part #: CT3KIT51264BA1339 • DDR3 PC3-10600 12GB (3 x 4GB): ~$750
>> [http://www.crucial.com/upgrade/compatible-memory-for/Giga-Byte/
>> GA-EX58-UD5+(rev.+1.0)/list.html]
>> [looks like it's much cheaper to get 6 x 2GB at $171 to $230 times 2
>> <= $460]
>
> It's your money, but I'd get one or two crucial kits of 2 x 2GB to
> match the motherboard and call it DONE. About $200 total for 8GB...and
> chances are the second 4GB kit will be redundant.
>
>>
>> video card (brand/model to be determined): ~$100
>> [estimate - need more research]
>
> Well, since you won't be doing gaming and won't be doing video editing,
> $100 for a video card sounds about right. Try a XFX HD 4850 1GB. That
> will be more than enough power, could even run dual high resolution
> monitors with it.
>
>>
>> (Yes, I'm missing a power supply [or does the case include one?] and
>> probably a couple other items, like extra fans. I already have a
>> sound card [echo mia midi].)
>
> If the case includes one, the power supply is junk. What you want is a
> BFG ES-800, or an Antec Signature 850. You could also get by with a
> Corsair 750TX, but it must be the TX series.
>
> Note that you don't really need 750W to run your system, but the better
> quality power supplies are available in sizes larger than 650W. If you
> are building something to last, you need a high end power supply.

I found a review of the BFG ES-800 [summary:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/bfg-es-800-watt-psu-review/9
]. They like it a lot. Unfortunately, the prices listed at
www.google.com/products/ range from $140 to $325 and checking out the less
expensive vendors shows them to all to be out of stock. The Antec seems
rather expensive, too. The Corsair appears to be good, too (quick
review search) and it's available at newegg for $115, so I think it's
the best match for me.


Very good information and advice. Thanks very much.


Jim

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From: Jim Cochrane on 22 Jan 2010 16:36
On 2010-01-21, Gorril <gorril(a)mail.com> wrote:
> On 2010-01-21 21:07:35 +1000, Jim Cochrane
><allergic-to-spam(a)no-spam-allowed.invalid> said:
>>>
>>> ...
>>
>> I use Rosegarden (http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/), which I find to be
>> quite good, for the most part. It only runs on Linux at this point.
>> I'm sure that some sequencer/notation software for OS X is more polished
>> and has more functionality than Rosegarden, but RG seems to be good
>> enough for what I need at this point. Another factor is that good music
>> software for Apple systems is going to be expensive - it would add at
>> least several hundred dollars to the cost of my system.
>>
>> Things change and I may consider an OS-X-based system in the future.
>> (BTW, I will never consider Windows.)
>>
>> Thanks for the good advice.
>
> I have not used Rosegarden. I had a look at the website you mentioned.
> Hmmmm... I suppose at least it has a music notation view. Rosegarden
> suggests using soundfonts, sheesh soundfonts are lo-fi.

After doing some research last year into the available options on Linux
for software-synthesizer technology, I decided that the best option
was to go with an external synthesizer. I'm using a Yamaha Motif XS 6.
It has some good sounds, especially piano and organ and related sounds.
Some of the winds and strings sounds are not bad - workable for me at
this point; but I will want something better at some point and I think
it's possible to purchase some better sounds for the instrument. I need
to look into that further.

linuxsampler (http://www.linuxsampler.org/) provides a means of
using giga-sampler-format sounds on Linux. It may be better than sound
fonts, but it's not ideal and, of course, the format is no longer
supported by the company that invented it.

Another option is, perhaps, to use Windows emulation or virtualization
to use VSTi technology. But this would be quite demanding on the system
(even a top-of-the-line core i7) and I'm not sure if it's possible or
practical. Of course, a Windows box could be dedicated as an external
VSTi-based MIDI sound module; but that's more work and more expense.

I think the XS will do for now and, if I can get some better sounds on
it, might last me for a few years until I find something better.

> You might want to consider going the Hackintosh route. If you are
> concerned about the legality, purchase an official OS X upgrade disk
> from Apple and put it somewhere safe and then download a hacked
> distribution such as iAtkos and install that on your new Wintel
> hardware instead. With careful choice of motherboard and video card it
> will work "out of the box" just like a bought one.

I rather like this idea, but even if I purchase
the Snow Leopard upgrade disk (listed at $29 at:
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC223Z/A?mco=MTY3ODQ5OTY
) I'm not sure this would be legal. I would think that the upgrade disk
would require an existing Leopard installation in order to get a working
OS X running on my system, implying that to be legal I would need to
purchase a complete installation. (I wasn't able to find such a
package on Apple's web site, except, perhaps, for "Mac OS X Server v10.6
Snow Leopard — Unlimited Client License", which costs $500).

Am I wrong?


Thanks again for your help and suggestions.

Jim

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From: Jim Cochrane on 22 Jan 2010 17:19
On 2010-01-18, Paul <nospam(a)needed.com> wrote:
> Gorril wrote:
>> On 2010-01-16 06:00:17 +1000, Jim Cochrane
>> <allergic-to-spam(a)no-spam-allowed.invalid> said:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm planning on building a computer system that will have as its most
>>> important use a system for music composition. (Actually, I will pay
>>> someone to build it for me, once I've gotten the components.) This will
>>> be a Linux system (Fedora 12). My current goal (which might change once
>>> I get more data) is a system that meets the following requirements:
>>
>> I agree with Dave C's post in that your proposed machine is way over
>> specified.
>>
>> The most important things to get right are:
>>
>> - A *fast* hard disk. The faster the better, because it will be the
>> ...
>>
>> By not wasting your money on excess RAM and an over specced CPU you will
>> be able to afford a good monitor.
>>
>> ...
>
> If you look around, you can find examples of people using monster
> systems like that. This person has a project that takes 9GB of
> RAM, for a Cubase project. For some reason, there is enough content
> loaded to annotate 3 hours worth of television content. You'd think
> the project could be broken into pieces.
>
> http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/23575/159315.aspx#159315
>
> At some point, adding extra RAM becomes silly. Yes, on the one
> hand, there is zero latency for readout of RAM. But eventually you take
> on a project that won't fit in the RAM.

I like the idea of having a limit of 24GB rather than 8GB because I
can't predict the future and want this system to last for a while. I
suspect that 6 or 8 GB will be enough to start with, but at some point I
may happen upon the combination of applications, which need to run at
the same time, that require that I use > 8GB for decent performance (just
like 4GB [in my system that died last year] and 3GB [in my current
system] are sometimes not enough).

> The Cubase site suggests the use of SSD drives, and perhaps
> if additional samples, or the entire project was stored on an
> SSD, that would be fast enough to do the job. Then, you could
> use a smaller amount of RAM, and rely on the SSD to page in content
> as required.

I hadn't considered SSD drives. Interesting - I guess you're suggesting
that the swap partition be configured on an SSD drive in order to
extend virtual memory in a way that won't slow the machine way down,
as thrashing with swap space on a hard drive would. It sounds like this
is worth experimenting with - not for my initial system, but for future
expansion (beyond 6 or 8 GB), if I need it. Thanks for the suggestion.

> To give an example, say I test my existing hard drive and find
> the average access time is 12 milliseconds. That sounds pretty slow.
>
> Next, I plug in a USB flash stick. Minimum turnaround is 1 millisecond
> to an issued command. The bandwidth of USB flash sticks is limited to
> 30MB/sec. The benefit of this, is there is precious little latency
> for "head movement", since there is no "actuator arm" inside a
> flash stick. So if my samples were stored in a hundred different
> files, it would only take me 100 milliseconds to load all of them
> if the samples in each case were small.
>
> The next thing I could try, is a SATA SSD. The turnaround time on a
> command there is 0.1 milliseconds or less (it becomes hard to measure).
> You can find SSD devices that can pump around 200MB/sec in terms of
> bandwidth. And if that was an issue, they can be connected to form
> a RAID array, for higher bandwidth with the same kind of access time.
>
> http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3631&p=11
>
> My biggest concern about having 24GB of RAM sitting there, is how
> often a RAM error is going to occur. People building servers with that
> much RAM, would use ECC RAM to make it possible to detect a RAM error.
> Depending on the ECC method used, a certain number of errors can be
> repaired, and a certain higher number can be detected but not repaired.
> Such schemes were used in the past, to enhance memory reliability, but
> it is hard to get data now to decide whether such a thing is necessary.
> For example, my current system has no ability to detect errors, and I
> use errant program behavior in one of my programs, as an indicator of
> how frequent RAM errors are. On my previous system, I'd get several
> cases a month of "funny things" happening, implying a RAM error. On
> my newest system using DDR2 RAM, I'm seeing much less of that. And
> yet, neither of the systems are crashing. But the behavior of the systems
> is different. If you equip a system with ECC, it makes it possible to
> quantify what is going on - even if the system doesn't really need
> error correction, it is still possible in theory to get counts of
> events. It provides a means to eliminate RAM errors as an issue
> with a system. The desktop Intel Core i7 doesn't have ECC.

So I guess my system won't have ECC and I'll have to tolerate occasional
RAM errors. Do you think DDR3 RAM will have relatively less, or at
least about the same, error rate as DDR2?

> With regard to Fedora 12, I gave it a test (along with several other
> Linus distros) over the last couple of weeks. I was looking for a
> platform that would allow me to test an ATI provided video driver
> (so-called tainted driver) in a Linux distro. At one time, you could
> use one of those as a "push button option" (install tainted driver).
> In the process of doing my testing, one thing I noticed is Fedora 12
> seems sluggish. I couldn't trace down where the issue was. Sometimes,
> I'd execute a command and it would take 20 seconds to start. Other times,
> the program would start in 1 second. I had the "top" command running,
> and kept an eye on the disk activity light, and I couldn't see any
> indication from those, as to what the delay was. I always had the
> sensation I wasn't getting full use of my hardware. I even took
> a look around to see if I was stuck in PIO disk mode, and that
> didn't seem to be it. Another quirk, is the Fedora 12 LiveCD would
> not boot from a USB CD/DVD drive, but did boot from an IDE
> connected one. Which is surely bad advertising for a LiveCD, where
> you're trying to prove to people you've got a superior distro.
>
> A basic algorithm for system building.
>
> 1) Go to a site like Newegg.com. You don't have to buy there, but the
> combination of a reasonable selection of hardware, plus customer
> written reviews and comments, will give you some idea of hardware
> to avoid. Then, you can shop at your favorite vendor for the same
> stuff. For example, if you want quick and easy replacements on
> items, you could buy locally.
>
> 2) Select a system with the slots you need. If you have two PCI sound
> cards, then obviously you need at least two of those slots. You'll
> need a slot for a video card, and may want to allow a blank slot
> next to the video card, to account for card width or cooling needs.
>
> 3) Once you have your product picked, go to the manufacturer site.
> a) Check the CPU compatibility chart. Make sure the motherboard
> supports the processor. If the only BIOS release that supports
> the processor was issued yesterday, then suspect the new motherboard
> could arrive with a stale BIOS in it. Leave it up to your system
> builder to resolve this, if it happens.
> b) While the motherboard manufacturer may have a QVL for tested
> memory, this is seldom useful, if the memory part numbers are
> not for sale, or the memory is so old it is out of production.
> Personally, I prefer to buy a memory which has good reviews and
> try that instead.
> c) Immediately download the PDF user manual for the motherboard,
> and inspect it for limitations. Again, since you're not building
> a gamer system, there is hardly anything that matters there that
> I can think of right off hand. (Having sub-speed video card slots
> isn't likely to bother you.)

Good advice. Thanks.

> Your computer case choice COOLER MASTER HAF 922
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119197
>
> http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/11-119-197-S07?$S640W$
>
> a) Has the power supply in the bottom of the case. This means the cables
> need to be long enough, to reach the motherboard connectors.
> b) The case comes with no power supply. This is a Good Thing. I hate
> junk supplies bundled with computer cases.
> c) The case has a fan grill in the top of the case. If you spill
> a cool beverage on top of the computer, the liquid will go down
> inside. A case with a solid top, and a minimum of vents on the sides,
> may offer better protection from spilled liquids. I like my vents on
> the front and the back, but that is just me.

c) is a good point. Plus, I often put things (papers, CD disks, etc.)
on top of my computer. Plugging up a vent like that, I think, could
increase the inside temperature.

> Picking a supply isn't always easy. Since you don't have a lot of
> stuff in that case (no monster video card), 500W should probably
> cover it. The reviews show a few issues, but in looking at some
> competing products, I'm seeing the same kind of reports.
>
> +3.3V @ 30A, +5V @ 28A, +12V @ 41A, -12V @ 0.8A, +5VSB @ 3A
> CORSAIR CMPSU-550VX 550W
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139004
>
> You can get cable lengths for that supply, in the manual.
>
> http://www.corsair.com/_productmanuals/P49-00003_VX_Manual_2007.pdf

I'm currently considering a Corsair 750TX. I figure 750W will allow for
plenty of future expandability, and the price is reasonable. (Dave C.
suggested this one, along with a BFG ES-800 (too expensive) and an
Antec Signature 850 (also too expensive)).

> *******
>
> You can get the equivalent of a Core i7 system, with ECC RAM, in
> a server motherboard. I'm only showing this one, for its comedy
> value as a desktop. You'd need a monster computer case to hold it.
> This one has only one PCI slot, and it is hard to get ordinary
> PCI slots on these kinds of boards :-) So it might not allow
> easy reuse of an existing sound card.
>
> http://www.tyan.com/product_SKU_spec.aspx?ProductType=MB&pid=641&SKU=600000074
>
> This one takes up to 144GB of RAM :-) Slot situation is worse.
>
> http://www.tyan.com/product_SKU_spec.aspx?ProductType=MB&pid=634&SKU=600000022
>
> You can actually convert PCI Express slots, into PCI ones. Magma
> makes expansion cases for such a purpose. All you need is money.
> You plug a Magma PCI Express card in the host computer, run some
> cables to the expansion chassis, and the expansion chassis is where
> you can place more PCI cards. There is still higher first cycle
> latency, but not enough to notice. As long as there is a high percentage
> of burst transfers, these should work great.
>
> http://www.magma.com/6slot.html

So, all I need is to up my limit to, say, $25,000, buy a powerful
server system, make the necessary modifications, and I'll have a
super-music-workstation. :-)

>
> I think though, I'd rather have an ordinary desktop, and some
> SSDs. Even one of the Intel SSD drives should be enough. But if
> you're crazy rich, there are always devices like this. A thing
> like this, might not do too well on the Anandtech 4KB small transfer test,
> but for large sequential transfers, it would be a champ.
>
> http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/solid_state_drives/ocz_z_drive_e84_pci_express_ssd
>
> Paul


Thanks for the good info and advice.


Jim

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From: Flasherly on 24 Jan 2010 15:21
On Jan 15, 2:38 am, "Dave C." <no...(a)nohow.never> wrote:
> WD Caviar Green 2 TB Internal hard drive: ~$180
> [alt: Hitachi Deskstar 2 TB Internal hard drive - about 155 dollars]

>>OK, I'll forgive you for that blunder. Green hard drives are garbage. But they are quite popular due to their low price. >>WD is good, but get a blue one (or a black one). Whatever hard drive you get should be NOT GREEN, 7200RPM and >>have 16MB or 32MB of cache.

I'd agree for a few bucks more, non-green is good.

Garbage, though, nah... figure my 1T SATA green HD, 3yr-warr. w/ an
externally powered USB dock.

Say $69 (I've had it awhile). Both together and new. All video
storage. Nothing major and just as well "popular". May as well be a
$35 1T HD to you.

Because it ports some of laptop technology into a 3.5 desktop factor,
though, is far from sweeping it into garbage.
From: Gorril on 25 Jan 2010 10:26
On 2010-01-23 07:36:52 +1000, Jim Cochrane
<allergic-to-spam(a)no-spam-allowed.invalid> said:
>
> After doing some research last year into the available options on Linux
> for software-synthesizer technology, I decided that the best option
> was to go with an external synthesizer. I'm using a Yamaha Motif XS 6.
> It has some good sounds, especially piano and organ and related sounds.
> Some of the winds and strings sounds are not bad - workable for me at
> this point; but I will want something better at some point and I think
> it's possible to purchase some better sounds for the instrument. I need
> to look into that further.

The XS 6 is good but it is external and unless you are a live performer
it goes against the use of an uber-powerful PC as the DAW, you don't
need all the RAM and horsepower if you are driving an external synth.

Instead of wanting a 'better' external sound processor, keep what you
have and use it as a MIDI keyboard and control surface for PC based
soft synths. Save the money you would have spent on a 'better' external
synth and spend it on good DAW software and some decent VST plugins
(and either Windows or OS X).


> linuxsampler (http://www.linuxsampler.org/) provides a means of
> using giga-sampler-format sounds on Linux. It may be better than sound
> fonts, but it's not ideal and, of course, the format is no longer
> supported by the company that invented it.
>
> Another option is, perhaps, to use Windows emulation or virtualization
> to use VSTi technology. But this would be quite demanding on the system
> (even a top-of-the-line core i7) and I'm not sure if it's possible or
> practical. Of course, a Windows box could be dedicated as an external
> VSTi-based MIDI sound module; but that's more work and more expense.

Again, using a Windows PC as an external sound module completely
defeats the purpose of making your uber-powerful Linux music system!


>
> I think the XS will do for now and, if I can get some better sounds on
> it, might last me for a few years until I find something better.

I am sure the XS has a nice action since most Yamaha keyboards have
great actions. Just use it as a MIDI controller.

>
>> You might want to consider going the Hackintosh route. If you are
>> concerned about the legality, purchase an official OS X upgrade disk
>> from Apple and put it somewhere safe and then download a hacked
>> distribution such as iAtkos and install that on your new Wintel
>> hardware instead. With careful choice of motherboard and video card it
>> will work "out of the box" just like a bought one.
>
> I rather like this idea, but even if I purchase
> the Snow Leopard upgrade disk (listed at $29 at:
> http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC223Z/A?mco=MTY3ODQ5OTY
> ) I'm not sure this would be legal. I would think that the upgrade disk
> would require an existing Leopard installation in order to get a working
> OS X running on my system, implying that to be legal I would need to
> purchase a complete installation. (I wasn't able to find such a
> package on Apple's web site, except, perhaps, for "Mac OS X Server v10.6
> Snow Leopard — Unlimited Client License", which costs $500).
>
> Am I wrong?

It is possible to patch the Apple disk image in order to adapt it for
your hardware. The boot load process is modified and the driver
payload is altered. The procedure is pretty well documented.


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