CANTOR DISPROOF <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
in [Logic]
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From: |-|ercules on 21 Jun 2010 02:17 "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.here.invalid> wrote... > On 21/06/2010 3:40 PM, |-|ercules wrote: >> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.here.invalid> wrote ... >>> On 21/06/2010 1:11 PM, |-|ercules wrote: >>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.here.invalid> wrote >>>>> On 21/06/2010 2:45 AM, |-|ercules wrote: >>>>>> "Math-a-nator" <MorePornLips(a)example.com> wrote... >>>>>>>> Hypothesis: Ah have nothin to day and ah am sayin it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> it's worth thinking what "anti-diagonals" entail. >>>>>> >>>>>> You're not just constructing 0.444454445544444445444.. a 4 for >>>>>> every non >>>>>> 4 digit and a 5 for a 4. >>>>>> >>>>>> You're constructing ALL 9 OTHER DIGITS to the diagonal digits. >>>>>> >>>>>> And it's not just the diagonal, it's the diagonal of ALL >>>>>> PERMUTATIONS OF >>>>>> THE LIST. >>>>> >>>>> Why? >>>>> >>>>> Suppose you have your list, and you label each line. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1 0.xxxxxx >>>>> 2 0.yyyyy >>>>> 3 0.zzzzzz >>>>> 4 0.aaaaa >>>>> 5 0.bbbbb >>>>> >>>>> Now choose your anti-diagonal. For this purpose, X is anti-x, and so >>>>> on. So the anti-diagonal is 0.XYZAB. >>>>> >>>>> X != x in line labelled 1, Y != y in line labelled 2, and so on. >>>>> Clearly, it's not in the list. >>>>> >>>>> Now permute your list. Note that the lines retain their labels. >>>>> >>>>> 4 0.aaaaa >>>>> 2 0.yyyyy >>>>> 1 0.xxxxxx >>>>> 3 0.zzzzzz >>>>> 5 0.bbbbb >>>>> >>>>> It is still true that X != x in line labelled 1, Y != y in line >>>>> labelled 2, and so on. Clearly, the 0.XYZAB is still not in the list. >>>>> We can also immediately see that 0.AYXZB is not in the list either. So >>>>> now we have two numbers that are not in the list. >>>>> >>>>> Sylvia. >>>> >>>> >>>> There is no structure in the anti-diagonal. Well there is SOME if you >>>> choose 0.222... and it can't cross 0.1111... on the list. >>>> >>>> You select ANY digit at all, then select ANY digit at all for digit 2, >>>> keep on going and it criss crosses through the infinite list in >>>> diametrically >>>> opposed digital fashion. >>>> >>>> You've lost the plot. The anti-diagonal had SOME HOPE of establishing >>>> a missing element because it had any_digit_that_was_different, but when >>>> it can be selected at will from any of infinite digits, the ONLY >>>> criterion >>>> is you eventually fill the list selections top down, anti-diag is >>>> practically ANYTHING. >>>> >>>> It's really ridiculous to jump to the conclusion there's infinitely more >>>> zig zag >>>> missing reals when you can't specify a new sequence of digits. >>>> Why cannot ANYONE see that the finite NEW SEQUENCE just isn't happening! >>>> >>>> 123 >>>> 456 >>>> 789 >>>> >>>> Diag = 159 >>>> AntiDiag = 260 >>> >>> 260 certainly isn't in the list. As it happens 159 isn't either, but >>> it's easy enough to construct a list such that the diagonal is in the >>> list. >>> >>> 159 >>> 456 >>> 789 >>> >>> Diag = 159, in the list >>> AntiDiag = 260, not in the list. >>> >>> Show me a list where I cannot construct an antidiagonal that is not in >>> the list. >>> >>> Sylvia. >> >> After 2 weeks someone took the bait. > > But you can't do what I asked, and it has nothing to do with what > follows anyway. I've told you 20 times, the set of computable reals. But you blindly dispute it without comprehending WHY, can you wait 2 posts for an answer? NO. > >> >> My claim for the last 2 weeks is that new sequence just isn't happening! >> >> Because of ole herc_cant_3. >> >> Here are 2 derivations of herc_cant_3. >> >> Derivation 1 >> >> Assume the hypothesis: there is a unique finite sequence of digits in >> some real >> that is not computable. >> >> Obvious contradiction. > > Therefore there is no unique finite sequence of digits in some real that > is not computable. Are you stupid? therefore there is no unique finite sequence of digits in ANY real... > >> >> Therefore: ALL digits of EVERY real appear in order in the computable >> set of reals. > > That doesn't follow. A contradiction implies the inverse of the > assumption, and nothing more. > >> >> Derivation 2 >> >> 3 >> 31 >> 314 >> .. >> >> This list contains all digits in order of PI. >> >> That list was all finite subsequences of PI. > > This next step is in reality a wild leap. > >> >> The set of computable reals contains all finite subsequences of every real. > > As is the next. > >> >> Set contains all finite subsequences of X -> set contains all digits of >> X in order. >> >> Therefore >> >> X = all reals >> >> The set of computable reals contains all digits in order of all reals. >> >> Do you follow either of those derivations of herc_cant_3? > > Nup. > > Sylvia. Figures, you can't even derive that NO real has a property given some real having that property results in a contradiction. It is pointless trying to explain anything to you, you simply don't have basic mathematical reasoning, and even if you did you use 10,000 different excuses to evade the line of argument. Herc
From: Sylvia Else on 21 Jun 2010 03:30 On 21/06/2010 4:17 PM, |-|ercules wrote: > "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.here.invalid> wrote... >> On 21/06/2010 3:40 PM, |-|ercules wrote: >>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.here.invalid> wrote ... >>>> On 21/06/2010 1:11 PM, |-|ercules wrote: >>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.here.invalid> wrote >>>>>> On 21/06/2010 2:45 AM, |-|ercules wrote: >>>>>>> "Math-a-nator" <MorePornLips(a)example.com> wrote... >>>>>>>>> Hypothesis: Ah have nothin to day and ah am sayin it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it's worth thinking what "anti-diagonals" entail. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You're not just constructing 0.444454445544444445444.. a 4 for >>>>>>> every non >>>>>>> 4 digit and a 5 for a 4. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You're constructing ALL 9 OTHER DIGITS to the diagonal digits. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And it's not just the diagonal, it's the diagonal of ALL >>>>>>> PERMUTATIONS OF >>>>>>> THE LIST. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why? >>>>>> >>>>>> Suppose you have your list, and you label each line. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1 0.xxxxxx >>>>>> 2 0.yyyyy >>>>>> 3 0.zzzzzz >>>>>> 4 0.aaaaa >>>>>> 5 0.bbbbb >>>>>> >>>>>> Now choose your anti-diagonal. For this purpose, X is anti-x, and so >>>>>> on. So the anti-diagonal is 0.XYZAB. >>>>>> >>>>>> X != x in line labelled 1, Y != y in line labelled 2, and so on. >>>>>> Clearly, it's not in the list. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now permute your list. Note that the lines retain their labels. >>>>>> >>>>>> 4 0.aaaaa >>>>>> 2 0.yyyyy >>>>>> 1 0.xxxxxx >>>>>> 3 0.zzzzzz >>>>>> 5 0.bbbbb >>>>>> >>>>>> It is still true that X != x in line labelled 1, Y != y in line >>>>>> labelled 2, and so on. Clearly, the 0.XYZAB is still not in the list. >>>>>> We can also immediately see that 0.AYXZB is not in the list >>>>>> either. So >>>>>> now we have two numbers that are not in the list. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sylvia. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is no structure in the anti-diagonal. Well there is SOME if you >>>>> choose 0.222... and it can't cross 0.1111... on the list. >>>>> >>>>> You select ANY digit at all, then select ANY digit at all for digit 2, >>>>> keep on going and it criss crosses through the infinite list in >>>>> diametrically >>>>> opposed digital fashion. >>>>> >>>>> You've lost the plot. The anti-diagonal had SOME HOPE of establishing >>>>> a missing element because it had any_digit_that_was_different, but >>>>> when >>>>> it can be selected at will from any of infinite digits, the ONLY >>>>> criterion >>>>> is you eventually fill the list selections top down, anti-diag is >>>>> practically ANYTHING. >>>>> >>>>> It's really ridiculous to jump to the conclusion there's infinitely >>>>> more >>>>> zig zag >>>>> missing reals when you can't specify a new sequence of digits. >>>>> Why cannot ANYONE see that the finite NEW SEQUENCE just isn't >>>>> happening! >>>>> >>>>> 123 >>>>> 456 >>>>> 789 >>>>> >>>>> Diag = 159 >>>>> AntiDiag = 260 >>>> >>>> 260 certainly isn't in the list. As it happens 159 isn't either, but >>>> it's easy enough to construct a list such that the diagonal is in the >>>> list. >>>> >>>> 159 >>>> 456 >>>> 789 >>>> >>>> Diag = 159, in the list >>>> AntiDiag = 260, not in the list. >>>> >>>> Show me a list where I cannot construct an antidiagonal that is not in >>>> the list. >>>> >>>> Sylvia. >>> >>> After 2 weeks someone took the bait. >> >> But you can't do what I asked, and it has nothing to do with what >> follows anyway. > > I've told you 20 times, the set of computable reals. That makes no sense. The set of computable reals what? > > But you blindly dispute it without comprehending WHY, > can you wait 2 posts for an answer? NO. Dispute what? > > > >> >>> >>> My claim for the last 2 weeks is that new sequence just isn't happening! >>> >>> Because of ole herc_cant_3. >>> >>> Here are 2 derivations of herc_cant_3. >>> >>> Derivation 1 >>> >>> Assume the hypothesis: there is a unique finite sequence of digits in >>> some real >>> that is not computable. >>> >>> Obvious contradiction. >> >> Therefore there is no unique finite sequence of digits in some real >> that is not computable. > > Are you stupid? therefore there is no unique finite sequence of digits > in ANY real... Some or any - it's the same thing in this context. Either way, it's not what you asserted to be the inverse. >> >>> >>> Therefore: ALL digits of EVERY real appear in order in the computable >>> set of reals. >> >> That doesn't follow. A contradiction implies the inverse of the >> assumption, and nothing more. >> >>> >>> Derivation 2 >>> >>> 3 >>> 31 >>> 314 >>> .. >>> >>> This list contains all digits in order of PI. >>> >>> That list was all finite subsequences of PI. >> >> This next step is in reality a wild leap. >> >>> >>> The set of computable reals contains all finite subsequences of every >>> real. >> >> As is the next. >> >>> >>> Set contains all finite subsequences of X -> set contains all digits of >>> X in order. >>> >>> Therefore >>> >>> X = all reals >>> >>> The set of computable reals contains all digits in order of all reals. >>> >>> Do you follow either of those derivations of herc_cant_3? >> >> Nup. >> >> Sylvia. > > > Figures, you can't even derive that NO real has a property given > some real having that property results in a contradiction. Of course I can, but that's not what you claimed was the result. > > It is pointless trying to explain anything to you, you simply don't > have basic mathematical reasoning, and even if you did you use > 10,000 different excuses to evade the line of argument. 10,000? Surely I haven't reached that many yet. But I can't help feeling that those reading what you've written there would have to go back and check who was the poster and who was being replied to. Sylvia.
From: Graham Cooper on 21 Jun 2010 10:01 On Jun 21, 5:30 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...(a)not.here.invalid> wrote: > On 21/06/2010 4:17 PM, |-|ercules wrote: > > > > > > > "Sylvia Else" <syl...(a)not.here.invalid> wrote... > >> On 21/06/2010 3:40 PM, |-|ercules wrote: > >>> "Sylvia Else" <syl...(a)not.here.invalid> wrote ... > >>>> On 21/06/2010 1:11 PM, |-|ercules wrote: > >>>>> "Sylvia Else" <syl...(a)not.here.invalid> wrote > >>>>>> On 21/06/2010 2:45 AM, |-|ercules wrote: > >>>>>>> "Math-a-nator" <MorePornL...(a)example.com> wrote... > >>>>>>>>> Hypothesis: Ah have nothin to day and ah am sayin it. > > >>>>>>> it's worth thinking what "anti-diagonals" entail. > > >>>>>>> You're not just constructing 0.444454445544444445444.. a 4 for > >>>>>>> every non > >>>>>>> 4 digit and a 5 for a 4. > > >>>>>>> You're constructing ALL 9 OTHER DIGITS to the diagonal digits. > > >>>>>>> And it's not just the diagonal, it's the diagonal of ALL > >>>>>>> PERMUTATIONS OF > >>>>>>> THE LIST. > > >>>>>> Why? > > >>>>>> Suppose you have your list, and you label each line. > > >>>>>> 1 0.xxxxxx > >>>>>> 2 0.yyyyy > >>>>>> 3 0.zzzzzz > >>>>>> 4 0.aaaaa > >>>>>> 5 0.bbbbb > > >>>>>> Now choose your anti-diagonal. For this purpose, X is anti-x, and so > >>>>>> on. So the anti-diagonal is 0.XYZAB. > > >>>>>> X != x in line labelled 1, Y != y in line labelled 2, and so on. > >>>>>> Clearly, it's not in the list. > > >>>>>> Now permute your list. Note that the lines retain their labels. > > >>>>>> 4 0.aaaaa > >>>>>> 2 0.yyyyy > >>>>>> 1 0.xxxxxx > >>>>>> 3 0.zzzzzz > >>>>>> 5 0.bbbbb > > >>>>>> It is still true that X != x in line labelled 1, Y != y in line > >>>>>> labelled 2, and so on. Clearly, the 0.XYZAB is still not in the list. > >>>>>> We can also immediately see that 0.AYXZB is not in the list > >>>>>> either. So > >>>>>> now we have two numbers that are not in the list. > > >>>>>> Sylvia. > > >>>>> There is no structure in the anti-diagonal. Well there is SOME if you > >>>>> choose 0.222... and it can't cross 0.1111... on the list. > > >>>>> You select ANY digit at all, then select ANY digit at all for digit 2, > >>>>> keep on going and it criss crosses through the infinite list in > >>>>> diametrically > >>>>> opposed digital fashion. > > >>>>> You've lost the plot. The anti-diagonal had SOME HOPE of establishing > >>>>> a missing element because it had any_digit_that_was_different, but > >>>>> when > >>>>> it can be selected at will from any of infinite digits, the ONLY > >>>>> criterion > >>>>> is you eventually fill the list selections top down, anti-diag is > >>>>> practically ANYTHING. > > >>>>> It's really ridiculous to jump to the conclusion there's infinitely > >>>>> more > >>>>> zig zag > >>>>> missing reals when you can't specify a new sequence of digits. > >>>>> Why cannot ANYONE see that the finite NEW SEQUENCE just isn't > >>>>> happening! > > >>>>> 123 > >>>>> 456 > >>>>> 789 > > >>>>> Diag = 159 > >>>>> AntiDiag = 260 > > >>>> 260 certainly isn't in the list. As it happens 159 isn't either, but > >>>> it's easy enough to construct a list such that the diagonal is in the > >>>> list. > > >>>> 159 > >>>> 456 > >>>> 789 > > >>>> Diag = 159, in the list > >>>> AntiDiag = 260, not in the list. > > >>>> Show me a list where I cannot construct an antidiagonal that is not in > >>>> the list. > > >>>> Sylvia. > > >>> After 2 weeks someone took the bait. > > >> But you can't do what I asked, and it has nothing to do with what > >> follows anyway. > > > I've told you 20 times, the set of computable reals. > > That makes no sense. The set of computable reals what? > > > > > But you blindly dispute it without comprehending WHY, > > can you wait 2 posts for an answer? NO. > > Dispute what? > > > > > > > > >>> My claim for the last 2 weeks is that new sequence just isn't happening! > > >>> Because of ole herc_cant_3. > > >>> Here are 2 derivations of herc_cant_3. > > >>> Derivation 1 > > >>> Assume the hypothesis: there is a unique finite sequence of digits in > >>> some real > >>> that is not computable. > > >>> Obvious contradiction. > > >> Therefore there is no unique finite sequence of digits in some real > >> that is not computable. > > > Are you stupid? therefore there is no unique finite sequence of digits > > in ANY real... > > Some or any - it's the same thing in this context. Either way, it's not > what you asserted to be the inverse. > > > > > > > > >>> Therefore: ALL digits of EVERY real appear in order in the computable > >>> set of reals. > > >> That doesn't follow. A contradiction implies the inverse of the > >> assumption, and nothing more. > > >>> Derivation 2 > > >>> 3 > >>> 31 > >>> 314 > >>> .. > > >>> This list contains all digits in order of PI. > > >>> That list was all finite subsequences of PI. > > >> This next step is in reality a wild leap. > > >>> The set of computable reals contains all finite subsequences of every > >>> real. > > >> As is the next. > > >>> Set contains all finite subsequences of X -> set contains all digits of > >>> X in order. > > >>> Therefore > > >>> X = all reals > > >>> The set of computable reals contains all digits in order of all reals.. > > >>> Do you follow either of those derivations of herc_cant_3? > > >> Nup. > > >> Sylvia. > > > Figures, you can't even derive that NO real has a property given > > some real having that property results in a contradiction. > > Of course I can, but that's not what you claimed was the result. > > > > > It is pointless trying to explain anything to you, you simply don't > > have basic mathematical reasoning, and even if you did you use > > 10,000 different excuses to evade the line of argument. > > 10,000? Surely I haven't reached that many yet. But I can't help feeling > that those reading what you've written there would have to go back and > check who was the poster and who was being replied to. > > Sylvia. The comp reals is an example of a list you asked for your answers are all very dubious I assume you are trolling to be abused again I'm on iPhone and won't be saying any more for now bye Herc
From: herbzet on 21 Jun 2010 21:41 Sylvia Else wrote: > herbzet wrote: > > > Herc is a troll who is HAVING A BALL jerking all the "smart guys" around. > > Or not. Herc is a paranoid schizophrenic, and subject to a variety of > delusions. None of which implies that he is not also a troll. > What isn't clear is whether this Cantor stuff is a > conventional misunderstanding, or yet another delusion. It's the same old tired Cantor troll b.s. Sheesh -- open your eyes. -- hz
From: Sylvia Else on 21 Jun 2010 21:56
On 22/06/2010 11:41 AM, herbzet wrote: > > > Sylvia Else wrote: >> herbzet wrote: >> >>> Herc is a troll who is HAVING A BALL jerking all the "smart guys" around. >> >> Or not. Herc is a paranoid schizophrenic, and subject to a variety of >> delusions. > > None of which implies that he is not also a troll. > >> What isn't clear is whether this Cantor stuff is a >> conventional misunderstanding, or yet another delusion. > > It's the same old tired Cantor troll b.s. I didn't realise before how long this has been going on for. But I don't think he's a troll - he appears to have a genuine belief that the world's mathematicians have got this wrong. If it's a conventional misunderstanding, he might yet be persuaded that he is mistaken. But if, as I increasingly suspect, it's a delusion, then it will be immune to any kind of disproof. His behaviour here is consistent with his behaviour when discussing his other delusions - the closer you get to attacking his core belief, the more abusive he becomes. I've never heard of anyone having a delusion about mathematics before. Sylvia. |