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From: Rod Speed on 22 Jul 2010 03:19
John Turco wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> mscotgrove(a)aol.com wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....(a)gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Justin wrote

>>>>> No, not Apple Time Machine, but an actual time capsule.

>>>>> I have been asked to put together an external USB hard drive;
>>>>> format it and put a bunch of pictures, videos - you name it on
>>>>> there. It, along with other trinkets will be sealed in a
>>>>> container and buried.

>>>> I'd go FAT32 as long as the videos arent too big to fit on that.

>>>> Even if they are, I'd split those that are.

>>>>> At first I was thinking ext4 since it is non proprietary. Or
>>>>> ext2 for the same reason and the fact it is non-journaling.

>>>> Too likely that they will be long gone by the time someone wasnt to read the stick.

>>>>> NTFS? Maybe but I don't know what form M$ will be in circa 2110.
>>>>> Fat16/32 - out of the question since some files will be bigger than 4GB.

>>>> Just split the ones that are too big. It will be obvious that
>>>> you have done that if the file names are chosen properly.

>>>>> What about fat64/exFAT?

>>>> No guarantee that it will survive for as long as you need.

>>>>> Is there a utility to format a *hard drive* to fat64?
>>>>> I'm not even considering Apple's HFS+.
>>>>> Since most of us (myself included) won't be around when this thing
>>>>> is opened this is more of a thought exercise than actual task.-

>>> I would not worry to much about file system as long
>>> as the files are sequential, and not compressed.

>> Makes more sense to use FAT32 and ensure the files are sequential.

> Why not simply place a netbook, in the capsule?

I doubt they would be able to work out how to use it 100 years from now.

Bet you wouldnt be able to work out how to use a boot rom PDP11 if
I had included one of those in a time capsule, even only 20 years later.

>> That way if FAT32 is still around, and it should be, it can be used
>> and the stick accessed independantly of the file system if it is no
>> longer used much.

>>> I would also possible make sure that file structure was RAW., JPEG
>>> will be about for a long time, but maybe not more than 50 years.

>> I'd include the specs for JPEG in a simple text file.
>> Mainly because the file sizes are so much better.

> Furthermore, each digital camera manufacturer has its own proprietary RAW format.

Indeed.

>>> I would worry more about being able to read USB-2 in 100 years
>>> times. It is currently difficult to find hardware to interface to
>>> 20 year old hard drives.

>> But easy enough with LP records and what was used before that.

>>> USB wil be fine for the next 20-30 years, but I am not sure how much longer.

>> That's true of any electronic format.

>> The only real alternative is a non electronic format and has
>> some real downsides of its own with videos and audio files.

> Such long-term archival storage issues are always fraught with peril, alas.

Yeah, even chiselled stone and clay tablets turned out to have real problems.


From: mscotgrove on 22 Jul 2010 06:30
On Jul 22, 8:19 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> John Turco wrote
>
>
>
>
>
> > Rod Speed wrote
> >> mscotgr...(a)aol.com wrote
> >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....(a)gmail.com> wrote
> >>>> Justin wrote
> >>>>> No, not Apple Time Machine, but an actual time capsule.
> >>>>> I have been asked to put together an external USB hard drive;
> >>>>> format it and put a bunch of pictures, videos - you name it on
> >>>>> there. It, along with other trinkets will be sealed in a
> >>>>> container and buried.
> >>>> I'd go FAT32 as long as the videos arent too big to fit on that.
> >>>> Even if they are, I'd split those that are.
> >>>>> At first I was thinking ext4 since it is non proprietary. Or
> >>>>> ext2 for the same reason and the fact it is non-journaling.
> >>>> Too likely that they will be long gone by the time someone wasnt to read the stick.
> >>>>> NTFS? Maybe but I don't know what form M$ will be in circa 2110.
> >>>>> Fat16/32 - out of the question since some files will be bigger than 4GB.
> >>>> Just split the ones that are too big. It will be obvious that
> >>>> you have done that if the file names are chosen properly.
> >>>>> What about fat64/exFAT?
> >>>> No guarantee that it will survive for as long as you need.
> >>>>> Is there a utility to format a *hard drive* to fat64?
> >>>>> I'm not even considering Apple's HFS+.
> >>>>> Since most of us (myself included) won't be around when this thing
> >>>>> is opened this is more of a thought exercise than actual task.-
> >>> I would not worry to much about file system as long
> >>> as the files are sequential, and not compressed.
> >> Makes more sense to use FAT32 and ensure the files are sequential.
> > Why not simply place a netbook, in the capsule?
>
> I doubt they would be able to work out how to use it 100 years from now.
>
> Bet you wouldnt be able to work out how to use a boot rom PDP11 if
> I had included one of those in a time capsule, even only 20 years later.
>
> >> That way if FAT32 is still around, and it should be, it can be used
> >> and the stick accessed independantly of the file system if it is no
> >> longer used much.
> >>> I would also possible make sure that file structure was RAW., JPEG
> >>> will be about for a long time, but maybe not more than 50 years.
> >> I'd include the specs for JPEG in a simple text file.
> >> Mainly because the file sizes are so much better.
> > Furthermore, each digital camera manufacturer has its own proprietary RAW format.
>
> Indeed.
>
> >>> I would worry more about being able to read USB-2 in 100 years
> >>> times. It is currently difficult to find hardware to interface to
> >>> 20 year old hard drives.
> >> But easy enough with LP records and what was used before that.
> >>> USB wil be fine for the next 20-30 years, but I am not sure how much longer.
> >> That's true of any electronic format.
> >> The only real alternative is a non electronic format and has
> >> some real downsides of its own with videos and audio files.
> > Such long-term archival storage issues are always fraught with peril, alas.
>
> Yeah, even chiselled stone and clay tablets turned out to have real problems.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

By RAW format I really meant just a bitmap, without compression. A
BMP only has a short header followed by normally 3 bytes per pixel.
No compression is important.

Agreed, camera 'RAW' covers an enourmous range of non standards.

Michael
From: Rod Speed on 22 Jul 2010 15:14
mscotgrove(a)aol.com wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....(a)gmail.com> wrote
>> John Turco wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> mscotgr...(a)aol.com wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....(a)gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Justin wrote

>>>>>>> No, not Apple Time Machine, but an actual time capsule.
>>>>>>> I have been asked to put together an external USB hard drive;
>>>>>>> format it and put a bunch of pictures, videos - you name it on
>>>>>>> there. It, along with other trinkets will be sealed in a
>>>>>>> container and buried.

>>>>>> I'd go FAT32 as long as the videos arent too big to fit on that.

>>>>>> Even if they are, I'd split those that are.

>>>>>>> At first I was thinking ext4 since it is non proprietary. Or
>>>>>>> ext2 for the same reason and the fact it is non-journaling.

>>>>>> Too likely that they will be long gone by the time someone wasnt to read the stick.

>>>>>>> NTFS? Maybe but I don't know what form M$ will be in circa 2110.
>>>>>>> Fat16/32 - out of the question since some files will be bigger than 4GB.

>>>>>> Just split the ones that are too big. It will be obvious that
>>>>>> you have done that if the file names are chosen properly.

>>>>>>> What about fat64/exFAT?

>>>>>> No guarantee that it will survive for as long as you need.

>>>>>>> Is there a utility to format a *hard drive* to fat64?

>>>>>>> I'm not even considering Apple's HFS+.

>>>>>>> Since most of us (myself included) won't be around when this thing
>>>>>>> is opened this is more of a thought exercise than actual task.-

>>>>> I would not worry to much about file system as long
>>>>> as the files are sequential, and not compressed.

>>>> Makes more sense to use FAT32 and ensure the files are sequential.

>>> Why not simply place a netbook, in the capsule?

>> I doubt they would be able to work out how to use it 100 years from now.

>> Bet you wouldnt be able to work out how to use a boot rom PDP11 if
>> I had included one of those in a time capsule, even only 20 years later.

>>>> That way if FAT32 is still around, and it should be, it can be used
>>>> and the stick accessed independantly of the file system if it is no
>>>> longer used much.

>>>>> I would also possible make sure that file structure was RAW., JPEG
>>>>> will be about for a long time, but maybe not more than 50 years.

>>>> I'd include the specs for JPEG in a simple text file.

>>>> Mainly because the file sizes are so much better.

>>> Furthermore, each digital camera manufacturer has its own proprietary RAW format.

>> Indeed.

>>>>> I would worry more about being able to read USB-2 in 100 years
>>>>> times. It is currently difficult to find hardware to interface to
>>>>> 20 year old hard drives.

>>>> But easy enough with LP records and what was used before that.

>>>>> USB wil be fine for the next 20-30 years, but I am not sure how much longer.

>>>> That's true of any electronic format.

>>>> The only real alternative is a non electronic format and has
>>>> some real downsides of its own with videos and audio files.

>>> Such long-term archival storage issues are always fraught with peril, alas.

>> Yeah, even chiselled stone and clay tablets turned out to have real problems.

> By RAW format I really meant just a bitmap, without compression.

Makes more sense to use a jpg and include documentation
on the compression in a plain text file in a separate file.

> A BMP only has a short header followed by normally 3 bytes per pixel.

> No compression is important.

Nope, all you need to do is document the compression.

> Agreed, camera 'RAW' covers an enourmous range of non standards.

Yeah, you should have said BMP.


From: wilby on 7 Aug 2010 17:28
On 7/14/2010 2:23 PM, Justin wrote:
> No, not Apple Time Machine, but an actual time capsule.
> I have been asked to put together an external USB hard drive; format it
> and put a bunch of pictures, videos - you name it on there.
> It, along with other trinkets will be sealed in a container and buried.
> At first I was thinking ext4 since it is non proprietary. Or ext2 for
> the same reason and the fact it is non-journaling.
> NTFS? Maybe but I don't know what form M$ will be in circa 2110.
> Fat16/32 - out of the question since some files will be bigger than 4GB.
> What about fat64/exFAT? Is there a utility to format a *hard drive* to
> fat64?
> I'm not even considering Apple's HFS+.
>
> Since most of us (myself included) won't be around when this thing is
> opened this is more of a thought exercise than actual task.

I suggest that no 100 year old drive will spin due to hardened or
oxidized bearing lube and heads bonding to platters. I have some 10 year
old IDE drives that need a bit of help to get spinning, I use the old
"flip" trick.

100 year old capacitors are another likely failure point, they dry out
over time.

If you want the future users to have fun playing then go ahead and use
any hardware & format you wish. If you really want to save the
information, print it on non-acid paper. Braille might also survive
well, in that case they will be able to read it even if our sun has shut
down. :-)

Wilby


From: Rod Speed on 8 Aug 2010 02:22
wilby wrote
> Justin wrote

>> No, not Apple Time Machine, but an actual time capsule.
>> I have been asked to put together an external USB hard drive; format
>> it and put a bunch of pictures, videos - you name it on there.
>> It, along with other trinkets will be sealed in a container and
>> buried. At first I was thinking ext4 since it is non proprietary. Or ext2 for the same reason and the fact it is
>> non-journaling.
>> NTFS? Maybe but I don't know what form M$ will be in circa 2110.
>> Fat16/32 - out of the question since some files will be bigger than
>> 4GB. What about fat64/exFAT? Is there a utility to format a *hard
>> drive* to fat64?
>> I'm not even considering Apple's HFS+.

>> Since most of us (myself included) won't be around when this thing is
>> opened this is more of a thought exercise than actual task.

> I suggest that no 100 year old drive will spin due to hardened or oxidized bearing lube

Its unlikely to be none and easily fixed by using a
non hard drive anyway, in addition to the hard drive.

> and heads bonding to platters.

That doesnt happen with modern drives that dont let the heads land on the platters anymore.

> I have some 10 year old IDE drives that need a bit of help to get spinning, I use the old "flip" trick.

Doesnt meant that that will happen with all modern drives.

> 100 year old capacitors are another likely failure point, they dry out over time.

They dont all have electros and even electros dont dry out over time when not used.

And even if they do dry out, that doesnt necessarily stop the drive working.

> If you want the future users to have fun playing then go ahead and use
> any hardware & format you wish. If you really want to save the
> information, print it on non-acid paper.

Not viable for video.

> Braille might also survive well,

Not viable for video or photos.

> in that case they will be able to read it even if our sun has shut down. :-)

Fraid not.


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