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From: Scott Sauyet on 9 May 2010 23:17
Andrew Poulos wrote:
> On 10/05/2010 12:15 PM, Scott Sauyet wrote:
>> David Mark wrote:
>>> Garrett Smith wrote:
>>>> David Mark wrote:
>>>>> Why?  Everyone already knows [Google's] developers are incompetent
>>>> Many, if not most non-developers tend to disagree.
>
>>> And on what basis could a non-developer judge the competence of a
>>> developer.
>
>> On what basis can a non-musician judge the competence of a musician?
>
> As a non-musician, a judgement that one likes the music of one person
> over another doesn't automatically qualify you as a judge or music.

It doesn't take a professional, though to determine that I'm a
terrible singer. Just listen to me in the shower, and you'll know for
sure. No expert consultation needed.

>> On what basis can a non-president judge the competence of a president?
>
> That you imply that the "man in the street" can judge the head of a
> state even though that "man in the street" may have no real
> understanding of the machinations of political opposition parties, the
> media, the current economic climate... is ludicrous.

And to suggest that the only ones competent to judge the abilities of
a head of state are other heads of state is even more ludicrous, not
to mention extremely anti-democratic.


>> On what basis can a non-designer judge the competence of a designer?
>
> That it seems many people slavishly follow whatever the current trend
> might be is indicative of a lack of understanding of design and hence to
> know good design when they encounter it.

Are you a professional designer, then? Or on what basis are you
making that claim?


>> Obviously we can judge the competence of those outside our own field,
>> and rightly so if we can view the results of their work.
>
> Your personal opinion may or may *not* matter.

No one's opinion of my rendition of "Solsbury Hill" or "If I Were a
Rich Man" is likely to matter. But if I were to try to promote it as
professional work, it would not take a Peter Gabriel or a Topol to
dismiss it. I'm sure you could easily determine that it's not
professional quality, unless you're entirely tone-deaf.


> A surgeon may operate on someone yet that someone dies. To the family
> the surgeon is incompetent. To the medical board it might be discovered
> that some hitherto unknown medical condition caused it (the surgeon
> could not reasonable have been expected to know).

So then it's only the point of view of the medical board that matters?


> For me, I prefer to get opinions from those skilled in the particular field.

And exactly how are you going to determine who these skilled
practitioners are if you're not competent to judge the field? It
seems to me that you're caught in an endless loop. And hence I judge
that you must not be a skilled developer. :-)

-- Scott
From: David Mark on 9 May 2010 23:24
Scott Sauyet wrote:

[...]

>
> And exactly how are you going to determine who these skilled
> practitioners are if you're not competent to judge the field? It
> seems to me that you're caught in an endless loop. And hence I judge
> that you must not be a skilled developer. :-)
>

In the context of this industry, this is all silliness. For example,
there are ten gazillion possible configurations for IE, multiplied by
two layout modes, several "document mode" and "browser mode"
combinations (in 8) and at least three commonly used versions (not to
mention a fourth on the way). Furthermore, by default, exceptions are
not presented to the user in a noticeable way. And that's just _one_
major browser.

So if Joe Browser glances at Google's home page and investigates a few
features (which may appear to work, regardless of thrown exceptions), it
hardly puts them in a position to comment on the competence of Google's
front-end developers.

On the other hand, for a typical Google page, an experienced developer
can spot myriad, obvious gaffes within ten seconds, which clearly
indicates incompetence and/or thoughtlessness on the part of the
developers. They don't even need to waste time peering at the results
in a browser (knowing the results would be inconclusive at best).

So who would you ask?
From: Andrew Poulos on 10 May 2010 03:38
On 10/05/2010 1:17 PM, Scott Sauyet wrote:
> Andrew Poulos wrote:
>> On 10/05/2010 12:15 PM, Scott Sauyet wrote:
>>> David Mark wrote:
>>>> Garrett Smith wrote:
>>>>> David Mark wrote:
>>>>>> Why? Everyone already knows [Google's] developers are incompetent
>>>>> Many, if not most non-developers tend to disagree.
>>
>>>> And on what basis could a non-developer judge the competence of a
>>>> developer.
>>
>>> On what basis can a non-musician judge the competence of a musician?
>>
>> As a non-musician, a judgement that one likes the music of one person
>> over another doesn't automatically qualify you as a judge or music.
>
> It doesn't take a professional, though to determine that I'm a
> terrible singer. Just listen to me in the shower, and you'll know for
> sure. No expert consultation needed.

So you can tell whether

>>> On what basis can a non-president judge the competence of a president?
>>
>> That you imply that the "man in the street" can judge the head of a
>> state even though that "man in the street" may have no real
>> understanding of the machinations of political opposition parties, the
>> media, the current economic climate... is ludicrous.
>
> And to suggest that the only ones competent to judge the abilities of
> a head of state are other heads of state is even more ludicrous, not
> to mention extremely anti-democratic.

Really, so how many voters understand what the political party that they
vote actually stands for? I'd venture that its probably a tiny
percentage. As for anti-democratic, isn't it the case that people who
don't look good on TV cannot be elected?

>>> On what basis can a non-designer judge the competence of a designer?
>>
>> That it seems many people slavishly follow whatever the current trend
>> might be is indicative of a lack of understanding of design and hence to
>> know good design when they encounter it.
>
> Are you a professional designer, then? Or on what basis are you
> making that claim?

It seems that you're claiming that I need to competent in an area to
make a judgement.

>>> Obviously we can judge the competence of those outside our own field,
>>> and rightly so if we can view the results of their work.
>>
>> Your personal opinion may or may *not* matter.
>
> No one's opinion of my rendition of "Solsbury Hill" or "If I Were a
> Rich Man" is likely to matter. But if I were to try to promote it as
> professional work, it would not take a Peter Gabriel or a Topol to

I dislike the body of work by Donny Osmond but that doesn't mean he
can't sing nor does it mean that millions of people don't like him.

> dismiss it. I'm sure you could easily determine that it's not
> professional quality, unless you're entirely tone-deaf.

In his day Vincent Van Gogh's work was dismissed.

>> A surgeon may operate on someone yet that someone dies. To the family
>> the surgeon is incompetent. To the medical board it might be discovered
>> that some hitherto unknown medical condition caused it (the surgeon
>> could not reasonable have been expected to know).
>
> So then it's only the point of view of the medical board that matters?

If the scheme of things, yes.

>> For me, I prefer to get opinions from those skilled in the particular field.
>
> And exactly how are you going to determine who these skilled

Why does it matter how?

> practitioners are if you're not competent to judge the field? It
> seems to me that you're caught in an endless loop. And hence I judge
> that you must not be a skilled developer. :-)

And I notice that when you move out of your sphere of competence your
arguments aren't felicitous.

Andrew Poulos
From: Stefan Weiss on 10 May 2010 07:15
On 10/05/10 05:17, Scott Sauyet wrote:
> Andrew Poulos wrote:
>> As a non-musician, a judgement that one likes the music of one person
>> over another doesn't automatically qualify you as a judge or music.
>
> It doesn't take a professional, though to determine that I'm a
> terrible singer. Just listen to me in the shower, and you'll know for
> sure.

I quite like your shower version of My Way yesterday. Would have loved
to hear the end, but I had to split when you called the cops.


--
stefan
From: Scott Sauyet on 10 May 2010 09:08
Stefan Weiss wrote:
> On 10/05/10 05:17, Scott Sauyet wrote:
>
>> Andrew Poulos wrote:
>>> As a non-musician, a judgement that one likes the music of one person
>>> over another doesn't automatically qualify you as a judge or music.
>
>> It doesn't take a professional, though to determine that I'm a
>> terrible singer.  Just listen to me in the shower, and you'll know for
>> sure.
>
> I quite like your shower version of My Way yesterday. Would have loved
> to hear the end, but I had to split when you called the cops.

Oh, that was you? You really should have heard the finale. I
transposed it into the key of M-sharp; it was a thing of beauty!

-- Scott
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