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From: JosephKK on 1 Apr 2010 00:18 On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:26:54 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:22:40 -0700, >"JosephKK"<quiettechblue(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >>On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:59:41 -0700, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >>>On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:53:42 -0700, >>>"JosephKK"<quiettechblue(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT), «Leo» <leo2100(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On 26 mar, 12:23, «Leo» <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> I want to make a circuit that takes a guitar input signal, and then >>>>>> outputs a signal with fundamental and 2nd order harmonic with the same >>>>>> level (or arbitrary levels, I want to amplify the two components at >>>>>> will). >>>>>> >>>>>> I figured that there are various ways to do this, but I'm trying to do >>>>>> it all analog if possible (since it usually produces more pleasant >>>>>> sounds). Plus there are already commercial digital octave doublers, >>>>>> and the ones that are analog come as ring modulators (they add more >>>>>> components to the signal). The frequency range is 20hz-20khz at worst, >>>>>> the available DC source is 9V. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm trying to get the 2nd order harmonic by taking the input signal >>>>>> through a emitter follower stage, biased so the amplification is >>>>>> sufficiently non-linear to produce 2nd order harmonic distortion (and >>>>>> a little 3rd). Then to isolate the 2nd harmonic, I thought of >>>>>> inverting the input through another signal path and then adding the >>>>>> two signals, and hope that the fundamental frequency cancels out. >>>>>> While trying to do this in spice, I realized that I'm going to have to >>>>>> have some kind of AGC so the two signals hace the same component of >>>>>> the fundamental. Designing the AGC has been rather complicated so far. >>>>>> So the idea that i had is getting a little bit complicated. >>>>>> >>>>>> Any help or new ideas would be appreciated. >>>>> >>>>>In response to all: >>>>> >>>>>Thanks for the ideas. Some of them are much too complicated or >>>>>expensive for the scope I was aiming at. >>>>> >>>>>The simple techniques with spurious frequencys are already >>>>>implemented, and the circuits are available on the web, so I don't >>>>>think I would try reinventing the wheel. >>>>> >>>>>I was just trying to implement my original idea, but it doesn't seem >>>>>to be an easy task and I don't think it would be reliable in the end. >>>>> >>>>>So, could I arrive to the conclusion that getting a 2nd order harmonic >>>>>from an audio source is not a trivial task (with as little distortion >>>>>as possible)? >>>> >>>>I have an idea that is all analog and just reachable for DIY. I need to >>>>set up a simulation and see if i can get it to do what i think it will. >>>>If it works the way i think it might, it will do a real neat octave trick. >>>>I'll be back when i get my SPICE simulation done. >>> >>>You can certainly double the frequency of a single sinusoid with a >>>multiplier, but you'll get a real mess with music and its chords. >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >>I have something rather different in mind. I need (multiply tuned) tank >>circuits in the megahertz region and other kinds of circuits. > >OK :-) > >I've done sub-bass stuff for boom boxes, by using 1/2 octave filters >at the low end, digital DIV2, then reconstruct the envelope. Sounds >good even on Souza, and classical stuff, particularly Beethoven :-) > >If you've ever done Bobby McGee's in Phoenix, that's my stuff.) > > ...Jim Thompson Now all i need is a reason to get out that way.
From: «Leo» on 1 Apr 2010 17:50 On 30 mar, 22:53, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT), «Leo» <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >On 26 mar, 12:23, «Leo» <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I want to make a circuit that takes aguitarinput signal, and then > >> outputs a signal with fundamental and 2nd order harmonic with the same > >> level (or arbitrary levels, I want to amplify the two components at > >> will). > > >> I figured that there are various ways to do this, but I'm trying to do > >> it all analog if possible (since it usually produces more pleasant > >> sounds). Plus there are already commercial digital octave doublers, > >> and the ones that are analog come as ring modulators (they add more > >> components to the signal). The frequency range is 20hz-20khz at worst, > >> the available DC source is 9V. > > >> I'm trying to get the 2nd order harmonic by taking the input signal > >> through a emitter follower stage, biased so the amplification is > >> sufficiently non-linear to produce 2nd order harmonic distortion (and > >> a little 3rd). Then to isolate the 2nd harmonic, I thought of > >> inverting the input through another signal path and then adding the > >> two signals, and hope that the fundamental frequency cancels out. > >> While trying to do this in spice, I realized that I'm going to have to > >> have some kind of AGC so the two signals hace the same component of > >> the fundamental. Designing the AGC has been rather complicated so far. > >> So the idea that i had is getting a little bit complicated. > > >> Any help or new ideas would be appreciated. > > >In response to all: > > >Thanks for the ideas. Some of them are much too complicated or > >expensive for the scope I was aiming at. > > >The simple techniques with spurious frequencys are already > >implemented, and the circuits are available on the web, so I don't > >think I would try reinventing the wheel. > > >I was just trying to implement my original idea, but it doesn't seem > >to be an easy task and I don't think it would be reliable in the end. > > >So, could I arrive to the conclusion that getting a 2nd order harmonic > >from an audio source is not a trivial task (with as little distortion > >as possible)? > > I have an idea that is all analog and just reachable for DIY. I need to > set up a simulation and see if i can get it to do what i think it will. > If it works the way i think it might, it will do a real neat octave trick.. > I'll be back when i get my SPICE simulation done. Any progress ?
From: JosephKK on 2 Apr 2010 00:27 On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:50:33 -0700 (PDT), «Leo» <leo2100(a)gmail.com> wrote: >On 30 mar, 22:53, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT), «Leo» <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >On 26 mar, 12:23, «Leo» <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I want to make a circuit that takes aguitarinput signal, and then >> >> outputs a signal with fundamental and 2nd order harmonic with the same >> >> level (or arbitrary levels, I want to amplify the two components at >> >> will). >> >> >> I figured that there are various ways to do this, but I'm trying to do >> >> it all analog if possible (since it usually produces more pleasant >> >> sounds). Plus there are already commercial digital octave doublers, >> >> and the ones that are analog come as ring modulators (they add more >> >> components to the signal). The frequency range is 20hz-20khz at worst, >> >> the available DC source is 9V. >> >> >> I'm trying to get the 2nd order harmonic by taking the input signal >> >> through a emitter follower stage, biased so the amplification is >> >> sufficiently non-linear to produce 2nd order harmonic distortion (and >> >> a little 3rd). Then to isolate the 2nd harmonic, I thought of >> >> inverting the input through another signal path and then adding the >> >> two signals, and hope that the fundamental frequency cancels out. >> >> While trying to do this in spice, I realized that I'm going to have to >> >> have some kind of AGC so the two signals hace the same component of >> >> the fundamental. Designing the AGC has been rather complicated so far. >> >> So the idea that i had is getting a little bit complicated. >> >> >> Any help or new ideas would be appreciated. >> >> >In response to all: >> >> >Thanks for the ideas. Some of them are much too complicated or >> >expensive for the scope I was aiming at. >> >> >The simple techniques with spurious frequencys are already >> >implemented, and the circuits are available on the web, so I don't >> >think I would try reinventing the wheel. >> >> >I was just trying to implement my original idea, but it doesn't seem >> >to be an easy task and I don't think it would be reliable in the end. >> >> >So, could I arrive to the conclusion that getting a 2nd order harmonic >> >from an audio source is not a trivial task (with as little distortion >> >as possible)? >> >> I have an idea that is all analog and just reachable for DIY. I need to >> set up a simulation and see if i can get it to do what i think it will. >> If it works the way i think it might, it will do a real neat octave trick. >> I'll be back when i get my SPICE simulation done. > >Any progress ? I was figuring on working it this weekend (Apr 3/4 and maybe more). Do you have LTSpice? If so, then i could post that file for you without dragging you to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic for image files.
From: «Leo» on 3 Apr 2010 01:05 On 2 abr, 01:27, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:50:33 -0700 (PDT), «Leo» <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >On 30 mar, 22:53, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT), «Leo» <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >On 26 mar, 12:23, «Leo» <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> I want to make a circuit that takes aguitarinput signal, and then > >> >> outputs a signal with fundamental and 2nd order harmonic with the same > >> >> level (or arbitrary levels, I want to amplify the two components at > >> >> will). > > >> >> I figured that there are various ways to do this, but I'm trying to do > >> >> it all analog if possible (since it usually produces more pleasant > >> >> sounds). Plus there are already commercial digital octave doublers, > >> >> and the ones that are analog come as ring modulators (they add more > >> >> components to the signal). The frequency range is 20hz-20khz at worst, > >> >> the available DC source is 9V. > > >> >> I'm trying to get the 2nd order harmonic by taking the input signal > >> >> through a emitter follower stage, biased so the amplification is > >> >> sufficiently non-linear to produce 2nd order harmonic distortion (and > >> >> a little 3rd). Then to isolate the 2nd harmonic, I thought of > >> >> inverting the input through another signal path and then adding the > >> >> two signals, and hope that the fundamental frequency cancels out. > >> >> While trying to do this in spice, I realized that I'm going to have to > >> >> have some kind of AGC so the two signals hace the same component of > >> >> the fundamental. Designing the AGC has been rather complicated so far. > >> >> So the idea that i had is getting a little bit complicated. > > >> >> Any help or new ideas would be appreciated. > > >> >In response to all: > > >> >Thanks for the ideas. Some of them are much too complicated or > >> >expensive for the scope I was aiming at. > > >> >The simple techniques with spurious frequencys are already > >> >implemented, and the circuits are available on the web, so I don't > >> >think I would try reinventing the wheel. > > >> >I was just trying to implement my original idea, but it doesn't seem > >> >to be an easy task and I don't think it would be reliable in the end. > > >> >So, could I arrive to the conclusion that getting a 2nd order harmonic > >> >from an audio source is not a trivial task (with as little distortion > >> >as possible)? > > >> I have an idea that is all analog and just reachable for DIY. I need to > >> set up a simulation and see if i can get it to do what i think it will.. > >> If it works the way i think it might, it will do a real neat octave trick. > >> I'll be back when i get my SPICE simulation done. > > >Any progress ? > > I was figuring on working it this weekend (Apr 3/4 and maybe more). Do you have > LTSpice? If so, then i could post that file for you without dragging you to > alt.binaries.schematics.electronic for image files. I do, in fact LTSpice is my favorite SPICE program.
From: Phil Hobbs on 3 Apr 2010 15:40
�Leo� wrote: > On 2 abr, 01:27, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:50:33 -0700 (PDT), �Leo� <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> On 30 mar, 22:53, "JosephKK"<quiettechb...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT), �Leo� <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> On 26 mar, 12:23, �Leo� <leo2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> I want to make a circuit that takes aguitarinput signal, and then >>>>>> outputs a signal with fundamental and 2nd order harmonic with the same >>>>>> level (or arbitrary levels, I want to amplify the two components at >>>>>> will). >>>>>> I figured that there are various ways to do this, but I'm trying to do >>>>>> it all analog if possible (since it usually produces more pleasant >>>>>> sounds). Plus there are already commercial digital octave doublers, >>>>>> and the ones that are analog come as ring modulators (they add more >>>>>> components to the signal). The frequency range is 20hz-20khz at worst, >>>>>> the available DC source is 9V. >>>>>> I'm trying to get the 2nd order harmonic by taking the input signal >>>>>> through a emitter follower stage, biased so the amplification is >>>>>> sufficiently non-linear to produce 2nd order harmonic distortion (and >>>>>> a little 3rd). Then to isolate the 2nd harmonic, I thought of >>>>>> inverting the input through another signal path and then adding the >>>>>> two signals, and hope that the fundamental frequency cancels out. >>>>>> While trying to do this in spice, I realized that I'm going to have to >>>>>> have some kind of AGC so the two signals hace the same component of >>>>>> the fundamental. Designing the AGC has been rather complicated so far. >>>>>> So the idea that i had is getting a little bit complicated. >>>>>> Any help or new ideas would be appreciated. >>>>> In response to all: >>>>> Thanks for the ideas. Some of them are much too complicated or >>>>> expensive for the scope I was aiming at. >>>>> The simple techniques with spurious frequencys are already >>>>> implemented, and the circuits are available on the web, so I don't >>>>> think I would try reinventing the wheel. >>>>> I was just trying to implement my original idea, but it doesn't seem >>>>> to be an easy task and I don't think it would be reliable in the end. >>>>> So, could I arrive to the conclusion that getting a 2nd order harmonic >>>> >from an audio source is not a trivial task (with as little distortion >>>>> as possible)? >>>> I have an idea that is all analog and just reachable for DIY. I need to >>>> set up a simulation and see if i can get it to do what i think it will.. >>>> If it works the way i think it might, it will do a real neat octave trick. >>>> I'll be back when i get my SPICE simulation done. >>> Any progress ? >> I was figuring on working it this weekend (Apr 3/4 and maybe more). Do you have >> LTSpice? If so, then i could post that file for you without dragging you to >> alt.binaries.schematics.electronic for image files. > > I do, in fact LTSpice is my favorite SPICE program. It's everyone's favourite, except for Jim Thompson--and he's just mad because the license forbids using it to design ICs. ;) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal ElectroOptical Innovations 55 Orchard Rd Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 845-480-2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net |