How can the MMx math be corrected?
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From: Da Do Ron Ron on 29 Apr 2010 13:02 [T. Roberts wrote:] > SR predicts a null result, with identical legs. [~RA~ replies:] That is physically impossible. It is also theoretically impossible. To prove otherwise, you must show how it can happen. Maybe Dirk can help? ~RA~
From: eric gisse on 29 Apr 2010 14:08 ...@..(Henry Wilson DSc) wrote: [...] >>MMX is equally well explained by simple ballistic / emission theory, >>although other experiments soundly refute it. > > Name one... Pick any one given to you over the last decade. > > > Henry Wilson... > > .......A person's IQ = his snipping ability.
From: Tom Roberts on 29 Apr 2010 14:51 Da Do Ron Ron wrote: > [T. Roberts wrote:] >> SR predicts a null result, with identical legs. > > That is physically impossible. Nonsense! This is OBSERVED -- Michelson interferometers with identical legs give null results (i.e. a fringe shift of zero within resolutions). > It is also theoretically impossible. More nonsense. It is essentially trivial for SR to predict a null result for the MMX. Look in any SR textbook. Summary: in SR the speed of light in any inertial frame is isotropically c, so for a Michelson interferometer with its center of rotation at rest in any inertial frame, the position of the fringes is independent of orientation, hence zero fringe shift as the instrument is rotated. It's easy to show that the non-inertial effects due to a laboratory on earth are vastly smaller than the resolution of the best such measurement to date. Tom Roberts
From: Androcles on 29 Apr 2010 15:23 "John Polasek" <jpolasek(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:mrljt55vfedjvd0lqr986qv8kjphv71upn(a)4ax.com... > On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:01:04 +0100, "Androcles" > <Headmaster(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: > >> >>"John Polasek" <jpolasek(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote in message >>news:bb3jt559r0760vrvbc27ofhfd7mih9i8de(a)4ax.com... >>> On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 04:43:04 +0100, "Androcles" >>> <Headmaster(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>"John Polasek" <jpolasek(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote in message >>>>news:fsuht55d9frcg008t35c34kj46i8no0jtj(a)4ax.com... >>>>> On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 03:38:25 +0100, "Androcles" >>>>> <Headmaster(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>"John Polasek" <jpolasek(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote in message >>>>>>news:rolht557uq4jefem2ttuaq35lrk7ofpk28(a)4ax.com... >>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:56:51 -0700 (PDT), harald >>>>>>> <hvan(a)swissonline.ch> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Apr 28, 10:03 pm, John Polasek <jpola...(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:59:51 -0700 (PDT), Da Do Ron Ron >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <ron_ai...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >The math of the Michelson-Morley experiment (MMx) was based on >>>>>>>>> >the >>>>>>>>> >following two facts: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >(i) light's speed in vacuo never varies (due to its source >>>>>>>>> >independency) >>>>>>>>> >(ii) the value of this speed is known to be c (from Maxwell's >>>>>>>>> >equations) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >Given these simple facts, the time t along the horizontal leg >>>>>>>>> >must >>>>>>>>> >be >>>>>>>>> >t = (2L/c)(1/(1-v^2/c^2)), whereas the vertical leg time t' must >>>>>>>>> >be >>>>>>>>> >t' = (2L/c)(1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)), a time that is shorter than t. (v >>>>>>>>> >is >>>>>>>>> >of >>>>>>>>> >course Earth's unknown speed in space, which cannot be zero >>>>>>>>> >except >>>>>>>>> >for a brief period each year). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >As we all know, the MMx consists of essentially only two things, >>>>>>>>> >viz., >>>>>>>>> >(a) the apparatus in space, and (b) light waves in space; >>>>>>>>> >therefore, >>>>>>>>> >in >>>>>>>>> >order for the above result NOT to occur, at least one of these >>>>>>>>> >two >>>>>>>>> >things >>>>>>>>> >must change. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >As we all also know, the above facts about light did not change; >>>>>>>>> >thus, >>>>>>>>> >something about the MMx apparatus had to change. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >The only way to change the above math is by making the MMx legs >>>>>>>>> >different. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >Again, the only way to show the MMx null result on paper is by >>>>>>>>> >making >>>>>>>>> >the legs different. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >This cannot be done by some outside observer viewing the legs; it >>>>>>>>> >can >>>>>>>>> >only be done by a physical change of leg length(s). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >The above is proof of a physical change of length for one or both >>>>>>>>> >legs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >~~RA~~ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As I recall the purpose of the MM experiment was to measure the >>>>>>>>> velocity with respect to ether. The finding was a null, for which >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> logical conclusion would be that there is no measurable ether. QED >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It seems to me there is no place for talk about length contraction >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> time dilation because these adjustments only need to be brought to >>>>>>>>> bear if you believe that there is an ether and that v is a >>>>>>>>> measurable >>>>>>>>> quantity and that the expressions c+v and c-v make sense. I think >>>>>>>>> it's generally agreed that they don't make sense. >>>>>>>>> John Polasek >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No that's wrong too. Over the period of one year (which is the time >>>>>>>>frame under discussion), relative to any inertial coordinate system >>>>>>>>there is talk about length contraction as well as c+v and c-v. Time >>>>>>>>dilation doesn't matter for MMX; however, for that we have KTX as I >>>>>>>>already pointed out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>And although in his 1905 paper Einstein didn't mention MMX directly, >>>>>>>>Lorentz did so in 1904 and Einstein did the same in his 1907 >>>>>>>>overview. >>>>>>>>Moreover, Einstein derives in 1905 the LT by discussing a similar >>>>>>>>setup as MMX, complete with c+v and c-v; he calls in that paper >>>>>>>>length >>>>>>>>contraction "physical". And it is generally agreed that all that >>>>>>>>does >>>>>>>>make sense. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>>>Harald >>>>>>> You don't really think there is an ether with respect to which v >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> be measured but whose presence has been masked by the Lorenz >>>>>>> transform? >>>>>>> Why would the Lorenz transform apply here? There's no relative >>>>>>> motion >>>>>>> of a second moving frame or anything: the observer is sitting right >>>>>>> next to the mirrors and the only active phenomenon is the purported >>>>>>> ether wind that would affect both mirrors. >>>>>>> The overall conclusion, which is quite generally held, is that no >>>>>>> fringeshift means no ether wind. It's part of relativity >>>>>>> Einstein didn't get everything right; the contraction is only an >>>>>>> apparent one. >>>>>>> John Polasek >>>>>> >>>>>>What "contraction"? >>>>>>xi = (x-vt)/sqrt((c-v)*(c+v) /c^2) is an expansion. >>>>>>Obviously you don't understand algebra. >>>>>> >>>>>>MMX is done today on a far greater scale than you realise, >>>>>>and has been for 40 years. >>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment >>>>>> >>>>>>The time for laser light to reach the new moon and return is one >>>>>>leg, and the time for it to reach the moon and return at last quarter >>>>>>one week later is the other leg of MMX. The Earth-Moon system >>>>>>moves around the Sun so if Einstein's ridiculous postulate was true >>>>>>then the light wound travel to the new moon and back at c and to >>>>>>the quarter moon at c+v, coming back at c-v, where v is the >>>>>> speed of the Earth-Moon system going around the Sun. This >>>>>>has the relativistic value of 0.0001c, so someone would notice >>>>>>it by now. Instead, we measure the distance to the Moon because >>>>>>the speed is c both ways always. >>>>>> >>>>> What are you babbling about? >>>> >>>>I'm babbling about asking you a question, what "contraction"? >>>> >>>>xi = (x-vt)/sqrt((c-v)*(c+v) /c^2) is an expansion. >>>> >>>>Can't you read, cretin? >>>> >>>>> Others are speaking of using the Lorentz >>>>> transform (contraction)-I am not-and they must be doing it to adjust >>>>> the leg lengths so as to get a null, apparently in the face of an >>>>> ether wind. >>>>> There is no ether wind, there is no c+v, it forms the basis of >>>>> relativity. >>>> >>>>What are you babbling about? >>>>As I said, you are totally incapable of grasping algebra, you babbling >>>>cretin. >>>> >>> I admit that I came in late to the discussion and I have not read all >>> of the notes and particularly never looked at that verbose equation of >>> which you appear to be overly fond. Let me simplify it for you: >>> xi = (x-vt)*gamma >> >> What are you babbling about ? >> http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img53.gif >>where >> http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img54.gif >> >>xi = beta * (x-vt), learn to read the Greek alphabet. >> >>beta = 1/ sqrt[{(c-v) / c} * {(c+v) / c}], >> = 1/ sqrt[(c-v) * (c+v) / c^2], >> = 1/ sqrt[(c^2 -v^2) / c^2], >> = 1/ sqrt[c^2/c^2 - v^2/c^2], >> = 1/ sqrt[1 - v^2/c^2], > Those conversant in relativity will immediately recognize that, to the > contrary, beta = v/c, from time immemorial. As I previously babbled, you can't read. Come back when you've passed first grade and learned to click on a link with a mouse, you stooopid babbling cretin. http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/figures/img54.gif {click here-------------^^^^^ }
From: harald on 29 Apr 2010 16:06
On Apr 29, 3:10 am, John Polasek <jpola...(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote: > On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:56:51 -0700 (PDT), harald <h...(a)swissonline.ch> > wrote: > > > > >On Apr 28, 10:03 pm, John Polasek <jpola...(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote: > >> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:59:51 -0700 (PDT), Da Do Ron Ron > > >> <ron_ai...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >The math of the Michelson-Morley experiment (MMx) was based on the > >> >following two facts: > > >> >(i) light's speed in vacuo never varies (due to its source > >> >independency) > >> >(ii) the value of this speed is known to be c (from Maxwell's > >> >equations) > > >> >Given these simple facts, the time t along the horizontal leg must be > >> >t = (2L/c)(1/(1-v^2/c^2)), whereas the vertical leg time t' must be > >> >t' = (2L/c)(1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)), a time that is shorter than t. (v is > >> >of > >> >course Earth's unknown speed in space, which cannot be zero except > >> >for a brief period each year). > > >> >As we all know, the MMx consists of essentially only two things, > >> >viz., > >> >(a) the apparatus in space, and (b) light waves in space; therefore, > >> >in > >> >order for the above result NOT to occur, at least one of these two > >> >things > >> >must change. > > >> >As we all also know, the above facts about light did not change; > >> >thus, > >> >something about the MMx apparatus had to change. > > >> >The only way to change the above math is by making the MMx legs > >> >different. > > >> >Again, the only way to show the MMx null result on paper is by making > >> >the legs different. > > >> >This cannot be done by some outside observer viewing the legs; it can > >> >only be done by a physical change of leg length(s). > > >> >The above is proof of a physical change of length for one or both > >> >legs. > > >> >~~RA~~ > > >> As I recall the purpose of the MM experiment was to measure the > >> velocity with respect to ether. The finding was a null, for which the > >> logical conclusion would be that there is no measurable ether. QED > > >> It seems to me there is no place for talk about length contraction or > >> time dilation because these adjustments only need to be brought to > >> bear if you believe that there is an ether and that v is a measurable > >> quantity and that the expressions c+v and c-v make sense. I think > >> it's generally agreed that they don't make sense. > >> John Polasek > > >No that's wrong too. Over the period of one year (which is the time > >frame under discussion), relative to any inertial coordinate system > >there is talk about length contraction as well as c+v and c-v. Time > >dilation doesn't matter for MMX; however, for that we have KTX as I > >already pointed out. > > >And although in his 1905 paper Einstein didn't mention MMX directly, > >Lorentz did so in 1904 and Einstein did the same in his 1907 overview. > >Moreover, Einstein derives in 1905 the LT by discussing a similar > >setup as MMX, complete with c+v and c-v; he calls in that paper length > >contraction "physical". And it is generally agreed that all that does > >make sense. > > >Cheers, > >Harald > > You don't really think there is an ether with respect to which v could > be measured but whose presence has been masked by the Lorenz > transform? > Why would the Lorenz transform apply here? There's no relative motion > of a second moving frame or anything: the observer is sitting right > next to the mirrors and the only active phenomenon is the purported > ether wind that would affect both mirrors. > The overall conclusion, which is quite generally held, is that no > fringeshift means no ether wind. It's part of relativity > Einstein didn't get everything right; the contraction is only an > apparent one. > John Polasek John I wonder if you don't know MMX which is only a mouse click away, or if you confuse Michelson's conclusion of 1888 (which was based on faulty assumptions) with SRT theory. Anyway, the discussion of MMX in whatever theoretical context concerns measurements on Earth while the Earth rotates around the sun, and SRT relates to measurements in whatever inertial coordinate system you may choose. Whatever one you choose for your measurements, most of the time the interferometer is in motion with speed v relative to your chosen system. Moreover, as I already mentioned, KTX links Lorentz contraction with time dilation; it has been demonstrated beyond doubt that time dilation can NOT be "only apparent" as it results in a true effect over one full round trip, as Einstein already predicted in 1905 (which made it "paradoxical" for true relativists like Dingle). See also Phys.Review 1960, vol.120 p.17 Sherwin, Some recent experimental tests of the "clock paradox". Regards, Harald |