How hot is too hot?
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From: mm on 29 Jul 2010 21:15 How hot is too hot for an ASUS mobo, the CPU temp and the MOBO temp? Also will adding another half-gig of RAM make the temp problem worse? (I have them memory already but havent' been using it.) I have an ASUS mobo, A7M266, with one gig of RAM, and an 800 MHz CPU, not by intel, (I forget the company, but they rate the speed higher iiuc. Amtrak? Amstel?) My oil furnace malfunctioned for a while this past winter, and tv screens attracted noticeable soot. Some parts inside the computer were probably also affected. I've vacuumed it, but the story starts before then. When the hot days of summer started, I found that the computer was overheating. I exited winXP and it turned the computer off**. When it was cool again, I dl'd and installed ASUSProbe. The default temps at which points it would flash and beep warnings seemed very high. I lowered them to about 4 degrees of the operating temps on non-hot days. So if it gets 4 degrees above that, it beeps and flashes. But I have no idea what the temps should really be. What would you set your temp limits at? For example, right now the MOBO temp is set for 41C/105F. Some days it's 102 degrees out and maybe 90 something in my house. It's not a long way from room temp until the mobo reaches 105, but is this really an unacceptable temperature? Similarly, the CPU is set for 156?F/70C, and it will reach that if I have the newsreader, mailreader, and web browser open, especially if I have a lot of tabs open, but is that really too hot. When it first overheated, I had no way to measure temp***. I knew because it stopped working right. That hasn't happened again. **A couple weeks later, I also remnmoved the CPU fan and vacuuumed the heat sink with a real vacuum, not one of those battery operated tiny things. At that point the computer temp went 10 to 20 degrees cooler, and as long as the outside temps were in the 80's things were fine. I plan to vacuum again with a better attaachment (for lamp shades) but uutil then, I'd like to know. I"m in the middle of assembling a bigger faster computer ***The actual temp shows in the BIOS settings, but I can't look there, because it's never that hot when I'm not running programs. Also FWIW it seems to run cooler when I use win98, another partition on the same HD. Also fwiw, it turns out the soot is not sticky and it's not oily. It comes right off when sucked. It even comes off when I rap on the heat sink, although then it falls, mostly onto the bottom of the case. Doesn't seem to leave a trace, so I must have missed some of it for other reasons, like wind dynamics. Any help is greatly appreciated.
From: Paul on 30 Jul 2010 00:37 mm wrote: > How hot is too hot for an ASUS mobo, the CPU temp and the MOBO temp? > > Also will adding another half-gig of RAM make the temp problem worse? > (I have them memory already but havent' been using it.) > > I have an ASUS mobo, A7M266, with one gig of RAM, and an 800 MHz CPU, > not by intel, (I forget the company, but they rate the speed higher > iiuc. Amtrak? Amstel?) > > My oil furnace malfunctioned for a while this past winter, and tv > screens attracted noticeable soot. Some parts inside the computer > were probably also affected. I've vacuumed it, but the story starts > before then. > > When the hot days of summer started, I found that the computer was > overheating. I exited winXP and it turned the computer off**. > > When it was cool again, I dl'd and installed ASUSProbe. The default > temps at which points it would flash and beep warnings seemed very > high. I lowered them to about 4 degrees of the operating temps on > non-hot days. So if it gets 4 degrees above that, it beeps and > flashes. > > But I have no idea what the temps should really be. What would you > set your temp limits at? > > For example, right now the MOBO temp is set for 41C/105F. Some days > it's 102 degrees out and maybe 90 something in my house. It's not a > long way from room temp until the mobo reaches 105, but is this really > an unacceptable temperature? > > Similarly, the CPU is set for 156?F/70C, and it will reach that if I > have the newsreader, mailreader, and web browser open, especially if I > have a lot of tabs open, but is that really too hot. > > When it first overheated, I had no way to measure temp***. I knew > because it stopped working right. That hasn't happened again. > > **A couple weeks later, I also remnmoved the CPU fan and vacuuumed the > heat sink with a real vacuum, not one of those battery operated tiny > things. At that point the computer temp went 10 to 20 degrees cooler, > and as long as the outside temps were in the 80's things were fine. > > I plan to vacuum again with a better attaachment (for lamp shades) but > uutil then, I'd like to know. > > I"m in the middle of assembling a bigger faster computer > > ***The actual temp shows in the BIOS settings, but I can't look there, > because it's never that hot when I'm not running programs. > > Also FWIW it seems to run cooler when I use win98, another partition > on the same HD. > > Also fwiw, it turns out the soot is not sticky and it's not oily. It > comes right off when sucked. It even comes off when I rap on the heat > sink, although then it falls, mostly onto the bottom of the case. > Doesn't seem to leave a trace, so I must have missed some of it for > other reasons, like wind dynamics. > > Any help is greatly appreciated. There are at least two ways to measure CPU temperature. You can use a socket measurement (thermistor located below the CPU body). The CPU temperature limit with that as a measurement might be 65C. Or, you can sense the diode on the silicon die, and the die gets hotter than the socket would (under the same conditions). The limit in that case, is 85 or 90C. The 85C/90C limit has been enforced, on motherboards later than yours, using chips such as Winbond W83L785TS-S. (As far as I know, the "offset" feature in this one, is to make end users comfortable, with "socket-like" temperature measurements, while continuing to enforce the silicon die temp limit. I don't think the 3 bit offset actually affects the trip point. The design engineer sets the resistors up, to give some idea of an offset to apply to the value read via I2C bus, to make "socket-like" temperature readings.) http://www.winbond-usa.com/products/winbond_products/pdfs/PCIC/W83L785TS-S.pdf Your motherboard might be limited to estimating the temperature via a socket based measurement. And not have any reliable automated computer shutdown, in the event of the CPU getting too hot. (If the heatsink falls off your CPU, it may not shut down in time, or shut down at all, leading to a ruined CPU.) There was a generation of motherboards, that lacked adequate CPU temperature protection, leading to the over-hyped Tomshardware video of an AMD CPU burning up. Later motherboards came up with better methods of providing protection. Modern AMD and Intel systems, both have THERMTRIP, so this is a solved problem on your new build. So it really depends on how the temperature is measured. Also, the socket method is subject to the manufacturer applying the right correction (offset) to the measured value, to give a sensible value. (Since fudge factors are used all over the place, it's pretty hard to say what is really going on. The temperature reading in the BIOS, may give you some idea what fudge factor Asus liked, when they were designing the BIOS code.) (Maximum die temperature 90C for a particular Athlon.) http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/24309.pdf So if the tool you're using, is pretending to measure a CPU socket temperature, then 65C might be a reasonable upper limit (for stability as much as anything else). If you had a more modern board, say one with the W83L785TS-S on it, then it may be enforcing a silicon die limit of 85C or 90C. (For different generations of AMD processor, you may find the datasheet lists one of those values.) if the above seems a bit imprecise, well, it is imprecise. AMD (CPU manuf.) does have a stated limit, as the 24309 document shows. But what your measurement circuit is doing, is a completely separate issue. Maybe a 65C reading there, is equal to the 90C limit of the processor. Who knows... ******* For Northbridge or Southbridge chips, similar issues may exist. On older motherboards, a thermistor may be used to measure the temperature of one of them. On newer designs, a silicon diode inside the chip, is used. They can give different readings (as one is a socket/case reading, the other a silicon die reading). Some examples of limits: 875P Tcase-max is 99C degrees. (PDF page 17). This is a Northbridge http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/designguide/252528.pdf ICH5 Tcase-max is 115C degrees. (PDf page 7). This is a Southbridge http://www.intel.com/assets/pdf/designguide/252673.pdf The human finger, can press on a 65C surface for about two seconds, before deciding it is "too hot". And unless your chipset is sandwiched inside a laptop, it really shouldn't be forced to run that hot. The thing is, you need adequate cooling for your hard drives, and by the time there is sufficient air moving through the computer case to cool the drives, chances are the (properly attached) chipset heatsinks are cool enough. Setting a limit of 65C there, should help keep the memory controller on the Northbridge stable and error free. You might expect to see a low value in practice, like 43C or so. And in the case of the ICH5 (which didn't have a heatsink on it), there was barely any heat detectable when you touched it. So no reading there is really necessary. You can try looking up your chipset on the AMD site, like look for the AMD761 and see if it gives thermal info. The VIA website is a waste of time, and they don't typically give out useful info to end users (only under NDA). Your Southbridge is made by VIA, and the Northbridge by AMD (same as the brand of processor). AMD761 (Tcase-max is 85C, page 58) http://support.amd.com/us/ChipsetMotherboard_TechDocs/24088.pdf ******* You can check your hard drive temperature with Speedfan from almico.com or with HDTune from HDTune.com ( http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe ) Usually, mine are in the 35C range, and may get up to 45C or so if the A.C. is off. (Hard drive temperature, if supported, is provided via the S.M.A.R.T interface.) Hard drives are sensitive to both humidity and temperature, and the closer you are to "living in a rain forest", then the closer to 35C you should maintain the drive. You can run them hotter, if the air is extremely dry. Some hard drive manufacturers provide a graph, if you can find the appropriate document (that is where I discovered they were also interested in the humidity). ******* Things that help your CPU stay cool: 1) Adequate case intake vents, to ensure good case cooling, so the case fan doesn't have to work too hard. Some computer cases, have too small an intake area. 2) Clean the heatsink fins (you've done that). 3) Don't bother cleaning the fan blades - I ruined a fan bearing by applying a little too much pressure to the fan blades. Be careful if you do that kind of cleaning. 4) If you know the temps shot up too high, chances are your thermal paste or thermal interface material, needs to be changed. Special care must be used, when working with bare-die processors such as yours. It helps if a "shim" or "rubber bumps" are present on the top of the processor, so the heatsink cannot be rocked from side to side, when putting the heatsink back. If you rock the heatsink, it chips the edges of the silicon die. If a crack on the edge of the chip, propagates deep enough, it will kill the CPU. Apply thermal paste sparingly, because if it oozes out, it will get on the resistors on the top of the processor. To do a "test pressing", put a half-grain of paste on the CPU die, and gently put the heatsink in place. You should get a round circle of paste squashed onto the die. The size of the circle, tells you how much additional material you'd need, to get complete coverage. Too much paste, is just as bad as too little. The AMD CPU has one of the smallest contact surfaces of any processor, so doing this right is critical to getting a good result. Processors with thermal spreaders on top, would make this much easier. http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appmeth/amd/ss/AMD_app_method_surface_spread_v1.1.pdf After re-doing the paste, you can run a benchmark like Prime95, and record the peak CPU temp (after the paste has bedded in). Record the computer case air temperature, and the room temperature. In later years, you can go back to those measurements, and compare them. If the CPU runs 10C hotter than it used to, for the same degree of case or room temp, then it may be time to re-do the paste again. The original thermal interface material, may be a phase change type. It can last a long time, but may need to be replaced if you remove the heatsink a lot. Paste, on the other hand, is not a permanent solution, and may need to be re-done in a few years. I'm still using the original tube of paste I bought, so a tube lasts a long time. I prefer paste, because I know, sooner or later, I'll be disassembling it anyway. HTH, Paul
From: 123Jim on 30 Jul 2010 10:47 "mm" <NOPSAMmm2005(a)bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:or74569g0eai6qt0bt8f7pngs0utu9jqi0(a)4ax.com... > > How hot is too hot for an ASUS mobo, the CPU temp and the MOBO temp? > > Also will adding another half-gig of RAM make the temp problem worse? > (I have them memory already but havent' been using it.) > > > > I have an ASUS mobo, A7M266, with one gig of RAM, and an 800 MHz CPU, > not by intel, (I forget the company, but they rate the speed higher > iiuc. Amtrak? Amstel?) > > My oil furnace malfunctioned for a while this past winter, and tv > screens attracted noticeable soot. Some parts inside the computer > were probably also affected. I've vacuumed it, but the story starts > before then. > > When the hot days of summer started, I found that the computer was > overheating. I exited winXP and it turned the computer off**. > > When it was cool again, I dl'd and installed ASUSProbe. The default > temps at which points it would flash and beep warnings seemed very > high. I lowered them to about 4 degrees of the operating temps on > non-hot days. So if it gets 4 degrees above that, it beeps and > flashes. > > But I have no idea what the temps should really be. What would you > set your temp limits at? > > For example, right now the MOBO temp is set for 41C/105F. Some days > it's 102 degrees out and maybe 90 something in my house. It's not a > long way from room temp until the mobo reaches 105, but is this really > an unacceptable temperature? > > Similarly, the CPU is set for 156?F/70C, and it will reach that if I > have the newsreader, mailreader, and web browser open, especially if I > have a lot of tabs open, but is that really too hot. > > When it first overheated, I had no way to measure temp***. I knew > because it stopped working right. That hasn't happened again. > > > **A couple weeks later, I also remnmoved the CPU fan and vacuuumed the > heat sink with a real vacuum, not one of those battery operated tiny > things. At that point the computer temp went 10 to 20 degrees cooler, > and as long as the outside temps were in the 80's things were fine. > > I plan to vacuum again with a better attaachment (for lamp shades) but > uutil then, I'd like to know. > > > I"m in the middle of assembling a bigger faster computer > > > ***The actual temp shows in the BIOS settings, but I can't look there, > because it's never that hot when I'm not running programs. > > Also FWIW it seems to run cooler when I use win98, another partition > on the same HD. > > Also fwiw, it turns out the soot is not sticky and it's not oily. It > comes right off when sucked. It even comes off when I rap on the heat > sink, although then it falls, mostly onto the bottom of the case. > Doesn't seem to leave a trace, so I must have missed some of it for > other reasons, like wind dynamics. > > Any help is greatly appreciated. My laptop shuts down abruptly at ~85 degrees Celsius for the CPU. I cleaned it a while ago with a can of compressed air and only recently has it begun to reach that temperature again, but only if I accidentally block the cpu vent which is not so cleverly located on the underside. Today is a cool day and I am only using the browser and the email client .. the CPU is sitting at ~49 to ~54 degrees Celsius .. the cpu fan is not 'blowing' at this temperature. If I watch a YouTube video .. The cpu temperature jumps to ~59 degrees Celsius (today the room temperature is about 18 degrees I estimate) and the cpu fan kicks in. The hard drive reports ~43 degrees Celsius. These measurements are reported by 'Speedfan 4.34' My laptop is HP Pavilion ze2000 running XP .. on Intel Pentium M 1.60mhz with 2GB RAM
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