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From: Peter Junge on 14 Apr 2010 22:34
Lars,

Lars Nooden wrote:
> On 04/14/2010 08:14 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:

[...]

> About the formula question, OpenFormula, has already been addressed and
> resolved in ODF 1.2:
>
> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office-formula
>
> http://wiki.oasis-open.org/office/About_OpenFormula
>
> As a bit of trivia you may note that ODF is the first to have formula
> standard.
>
>> What are your opinion for this interoperability problem?
>
> You are dealing with a mismanagement problem if you have allowed MSO
> 2007 to get deployed.
>
> Regina, try channeling resources into improving migration guides and
> howtos, or increasing awareness about the ODF Plugin. Chasing an
> undocumented, moving target like MSO incompatibility is a waste of time,
> effort and resources. No one has benefited from that chase before.

I'd tend to second this. The interesting thing is of course, if
Microsoft will implement OpenFormula after it is approved by OASIS and
later by ISO/IEC. If yes, the issue should get resolved on the long
term. If not, this would certainly be a perfect occasion for starting a
marketing/PR counterattack.

Best regards,
Peter

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From: Peter Junge on 14 Apr 2010 23:05
Hi Regina,

Regina Henschel wrote:
> Hi Lars, hi Jonathon,
>
> Lars Nooden schrieb:
>> On 04/14/2010 08:14 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:
>> > not all of you are familiar with the problem.
>>
>> The fact that MSO intentionally breaks ODF is very familiar to many,
>> perhaps everyone. That is not news.
>
> It does not break ODF. The documents are valid ODF 1.1, at least our
> validator [http://tools.services.openoffice.org/odfvalidator/] says so.
> The users, who are forced by government or company policy to produce ODF
> conform documents, can do this with Excel 2010. Therefore I guess that
> there will be an increasing number of Excel-ods documents.

you might consider to review the following blog archives around May 2009:

Rob Weir, ODF TC Chair, IBM:
http://www.robweir.com/blog/archives

Doug Mahugh, Microsoft:
http://blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh/pages/archives.aspx

Alex Brown:
http://adjb.net/archive.aspx

Best regards,
Peter

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From: Gordon Burgess-Parker on 15 Apr 2010 03:43
On 14/04/2010 21:44, Regina Henschel wrote:
> Hi Lars, hi Jonathon,
>
> Lars Nooden schrieb:
>> On 04/14/2010 08:14 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:
>> > not all of you are familiar with the problem.
>>
>> The fact that MSO intentionally breaks ODF is very familiar to many,
>> perhaps everyone. That is not news.
>
> It does not break ODF. The documents are valid ODF 1.1, at least our
> validator [http://tools.services.openoffice.org/odfvalidator/] says
> so. The users, who are forced by government or company policy to
> produce ODF conform documents, can do this with Excel 2010. Therefore
> I guess that there will be an increasing number of Excel-ods documents.
>

Hmmm. How do you work that one out? Open an ods file using the Sun ODF
plug-in in Excel 2007, everything is OK. Open an ods file natively in
Excel 2007 SP2 with it's alleged ODF compatibility and ALL the formulae
become values only
And you call that "not broken"? Are you REALLY saying that the Office
developers are so lacking in knowledge that they couldn't do what the
Sun developers did?
Come on!

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From: Regina Henschel on 15 Apr 2010 12:02
Hi all,

Gordon Burgess-Parker schrieb:
> On 14/04/2010 21:44, Regina Henschel wrote:
>> Hi Lars, hi Jonathon,
>>
>> Lars Nooden schrieb:
>>> On 04/14/2010 08:14 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:
>>> > not all of you are familiar with the problem.
>>>
>>> The fact that MSO intentionally breaks ODF is very familiar to many,
>>> perhaps everyone. That is not news.
>>
>> It does not break ODF. The documents are valid ODF 1.1, at least our
>> validator [http://tools.services.openoffice.org/odfvalidator/] says
>> so. The users, who are forced by government or company policy to
>> produce ODF conform documents, can do this with Excel 2010. Therefore
>> I guess that there will be an increasing number of Excel-ods documents.
>>
>
> Hmmm. How do you work that one out?

I write an ods-document with Excel 2010 Beta and let the validator
examine it.

Open an ods file using the Sun ODF
> plug-in in Excel 2007, everything is OK. Open an ods file natively in
> Excel 2007 SP2 with it's alleged ODF compatibility and ALL the formulae
> become values only

The start "Open an ods file" is not exact enough. There are Excel-ods
and Calc-ods. Both are valid ODF documents. You can work with Excel-ods
in Excel without problems and you can work with Calc-ods in Calc without
problems. But you get problems in Calc, when you open a Excel-ods document.

> And you call that "not broken"? Are you REALLY saying that the Office
> developers are so lacking in knowledge that they couldn't do what the
> Sun developers did?
> Come on!

The Excel-ods documents are surely valid ODF documents. If someone, for
example a government, demands the use of ODF documents, this can be done
with Excel-ods documents. That is the reason, why I suspect, that there
will be much more such documents in future.

The crucial point for me is not, what Excel does with Calc-ods
documents, but what Calc does with Excel-ods documents.

kind regards
Regina

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From: Regina Henschel on 15 Apr 2010 12:31
Hi Niklas,

Niklas Nebel schrieb:
> On 04/14/10 22:44, Regina Henschel wrote:
>> Of cause we have to consider the effort for a particular solution. But
>> blaming MS does not delete those documents. We need an agreement, what
>> Calc should do with those Excel-ods documents.
>
> When loading the file, we import the formulas the same way as for xslx
> files. It's even the same code that's used, and it's easy to determine
> the type of formula from the namespace. There doesn't seem to be much
> disagreement about this part.

The problem is, that Excel 2010 has a lot of _new_ functions. Therefore
the user gets a lot of #NAME? errors. He can see in the input line, what
formula causes this error, but the bad thing is, that the user is not
able to see the value, that has been calculated in Excel.

>
> When saving, we would have to know if the file is meant to be opened in
> Excel. In the end, it would boil down to choosing a different file
> format. But then, you can just save as xls if you want to open a file
> with Excel.

No, you cannot use xls, because the functions are not available in xls.
To make it clearer. Up to Excel 2007 there are only small problems. Most
major functions have a counterpart in the other application. But with
Excel 2010 we get more than 50 new functions. A lot of them can be
mapped to Calc function. But there are at least AGGREGATE, CONFIDENCE.T,
CEILING.PRECISE, F.DIST, MODE.MULT and NETWORKSDAYS.INTL (I have not yet
examined all the others) where a simple mapping is impossible.

You wrote:
"When saving, we would have to know if the file is meant to be opened in
Excel. In the end, it would boil down to choosing a different file
format."
That would be the choice C of my initial posting?

kind regards
Regina



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