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From: Eric Jacobsen on 5 Apr 2010 13:26 On 4/5/2010 9:42 AM, steveu wrote: >> This reminds of a case two years ago where I met a guy who claimed to >> have a machine that created more energy out than he put in. He >> "verified" this by 1st measuring the amount of power going into the >> the machine. Then he measured the power out by putting a load on it. >> Then he concluded he got more power out than he put in. The problem >> was he needed to measure the power going it to the maching when it was >> loaded. Once this was done, it was clearly observed that the power out >> was less than the power in. His investors were not happy! You can >> google "Sprain Motor" if you want to know about that particular >> machine. > > He claimed to create energy out of nothing, without some profound physics > to support it, and actually got investors? Was Sprain his name, or was it > Barnum? > > Steve > You'd be surprised what people can get vc money for. The Moller Air Car is one of my favorites. They've kept that thing going for several decades. Worse examples abound. When I worked at a large household brand name technical company I frequently consulted for the capital investment part of the company when they looked at startups with wireless technology. One, and this was only about four or five years ago, was essentially a repainted version of VPSK/VMSK, with a very clearly traceable heritage back to that technology. If you're unaware, you can read about it here: http://www.mwrf.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=6992&pg=1 or a worthwhile critique by Phil Karn: http://www.ka9q.net/vmsk/critique.html In the late nineties the company I worked for looked at VPSK and we quickly saw it for what it was. Ten years later it popped up again with the repainted version (and I don't remember what they were calling it then, but they'd changed the name to take some of the stink off). I pointed out to the people involved that this was an old scheme with nothing behind it, etc., etc., and provided references to the history of VPSK/VMSK. To my dismay another researcher in our lab who also consulted to the capital investment guys thought it was a good idea for some reason that was never adequately explained. Sometimes it only takes one (perhaps misguided) individual to tell the money guys it's a good idea even when others are pointing out it stinks. The process is kinda crazy, and some venture capitalists like risk and crazy-sounding stuff because on the slim chance that it really is golden they'll make a ton of money. Not all VCs are smart. -- Eric Jacobsen Minister of Algorithms Abineau Communications http://www.abineau.com
From: Steve Pope on 5 Apr 2010 13:36 Eric Jacobsen <eric.jacobsen(a)ieee.org> wrote: >On 4/5/2010 9:42 AM, steveu wrote: >> He claimed to create energy out of nothing, without some profound physics >> to support it, and actually got investors? Was Sprain his name, or was it >> Barnum? >You'd be surprised what people can get vc money for. Look up "Blacklight Power" (for example on Wikipedia), which is an energy startup based on new physics. It is not physics that has exactly been debunked, just physics that isn't proven and is somewhat contradictory to everything we know. It is part of a series of possibly related phenomena that might represent new energy-producing physics -- sonoluminesence, cold fusion, fractional quantum states. >When I worked at a large household brand name technical company I >frequently consulted for the capital investment part of the company when >they looked at startups with wireless technology. One, and this was >only about four or five years ago, was essentially a repainted version >of VPSK/VMSK, with a very clearly traceable heritage back to that >technology. >If you're unaware, you can read about it here: >http://www.mwrf.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=6992&pg=1 >or a worthwhile critique by Phil Karn: >http://www.ka9q.net/vmsk/critique.html I seem to recall that these sort of systems relied on sub-regulatory emissions over a very broad bandwidth, and in this sense resembled "mainstream" UWB modulation. Steve
From: Eric Jacobsen on 5 Apr 2010 14:06 On 4/5/2010 10:36 AM, Steve Pope wrote: > Eric Jacobsen<eric.jacobsen(a)ieee.org> wrote: > >> On 4/5/2010 9:42 AM, steveu wrote: > >>> He claimed to create energy out of nothing, without some profound physics >>> to support it, and actually got investors? Was Sprain his name, or was it >>> Barnum? > >> You'd be surprised what people can get vc money for. > > Look up "Blacklight Power" (for example on Wikipedia), which is an > energy startup based on new physics. It is not physics that > has exactly been debunked, just physics that isn't proven and > is somewhat contradictory to everything we know. It is part of a series > of possibly related phenomena that might represent new energy-producing > physics -- sonoluminesence, cold fusion, fractional quantum states. > >> When I worked at a large household brand name technical company I >> frequently consulted for the capital investment part of the company when >> they looked at startups with wireless technology. One, and this was >> only about four or five years ago, was essentially a repainted version >> of VPSK/VMSK, with a very clearly traceable heritage back to that >> technology. > >> If you're unaware, you can read about it here: > >> http://www.mwrf.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=6992&pg=1 > >> or a worthwhile critique by Phil Karn: > >> http://www.ka9q.net/vmsk/critique.html > > I seem to recall that these sort of systems relied on sub-regulatory > emissions over a very broad bandwidth, and in this sense resembled > "mainstream" UWB modulation. > > Steve That was exactly it; the data was actually in low sidebands so at high SNR with a broad enough filter it passed data just fine. If one built the system with a filter as narrow as they claimed the data actually occupied, the data would be filtered out. If one didn't have a high enough SNR to recover the data (compared to the power in the carrier, which protruded pretty high about the data psd), there wasn't any hope of recovering the data, either. -- Eric Jacobsen Minister of Algorithms Abineau Communications http://www.abineau.com
From: Clay on 5 Apr 2010 16:18 On Apr 5, 12:42 pm, "steveu" <steveu(a)n_o_s_p_a_m.coppice.org> wrote: > >This reminds of a case two years ago where I met a guy who claimed to > >have a machine that created more energy out than he put in. He > >"verified" this by 1st measuring the amount of power going into the > >the machine. Then he measured the power out by putting a load on it. > >Then he concluded he got more power out than he put in. The problem > >was he needed to measure the power going it to the maching when it was > >loaded. Once this was done, it was clearly observed that the power out > >was less than the power in. His investors were not happy! You can > >google "Sprain Motor" if you want to know about that particular > >machine. > > He claimed to create energy out of nothing, without some profound physics > to support it, and actually got investors? Was Sprain his name, or was it > Barnum? > > Steve His name is Harry Paul Sprain. And the company that was started to build the machine seems to be defunked now. I actually observed the machine's construction and with its large magnets and intricate machining a lot of money was spent on building it. I wonder what an audit would produce. Paul actually got a patent on the device although the patent never claims overunity energy production. We know what the patent office would have done in that case. The interesting thing about Mr. Sprain was in my many conversations with him (we each frequented a common watering hole) was he seemed very sincere. Either this was an amazing act or he really believed in the machine. He of course had no theory to back its operation. I met several of his investors and they had sunk so much money, I don't think they wanted to consider that the machine could not possibly work. They wanted to hire me to develop some of the control circuitry, but I passed that opportunity off to someone else. Mr Sprain is now working on some special rocket fuel for satellites. Cool? I hear he is looking for investors ;-)
From: Vladimir Vassilevsky on 5 Apr 2010 16:47
Clay wrote: > On Apr 5, 12:42 pm, "steveu" <steveu(a)n_o_s_p_a_m.coppice.org> wrote: > >>>This reminds of a case two years ago where I met a guy who claimed to >>>have a machine that created more energy out than he put in. He >>>"verified" this by 1st measuring the amount of power going into the >>>the machine. Then he measured the power out by putting a load on it. >>>Then he concluded he got more power out than he put in. The problem >>>was he needed to measure the power going it to the maching when it was >>>loaded. Once this was done, it was clearly observed that the power out >>>was less than the power in. His investors were not happy! You can >>>google "Sprain Motor" if you want to know about that particular >>>machine. >> >>He claimed to create energy out of nothing, without some profound physics >>to support it, and actually got investors? Was Sprain his name, or was it >>Barnum? >> >>Steve > > > His name is Harry Paul Sprain. And the company that was started to > build the machine seems to be defunked now. I actually observed the > machine's construction and with its large magnets and intricate > machining a lot of money was spent on building it. I wonder what an > audit would produce. > > Paul actually got a patent on the device although the patent never > claims overunity energy production. We know what the patent office > would have done in that case. > > The interesting thing about Mr. Sprain was in my many conversations > with him (we each frequented a common watering hole) was he seemed > very sincere. Either this was an amazing act or he really believed in > the machine. He of course had no theory to back its operation. I met > several of his investors and they had sunk so much money, I don't > think they wanted to consider that the machine could not possibly > work. They wanted to hire me to develop some of the control circuitry, > but I passed that opportunity off to someone else. > > Mr Sprain is now working on some special rocket fuel for satellites. > Cool? I hear he is looking for investors ;-) Rocket fuel for satellites? I thought it was invented already :-) Those people claim support-less propulsion; they even put their device on actual satellite! http://www.newsru.com/russia/17feb2010/gravicapa.html http://reid.citizendium.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion_machine When my dad was young PhD at the university, he was assigned the thankless role of examining the projects of lunatics. This was not only a tedious work of finding mistakes, but also dangerous. Idiots are revengeful; they appeal to media and try to sue. "Government bureaucrats are choking people's scientist" etc. etc. Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com |