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From: Ludovic Brenta on 13 Jun 2010 15:25
zeta_no writes on comp.lang.ada:
> On May 24, 6:45 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...(a)ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:
>
>> Which tutorials specifically did you use and which ones were bad?  How
>> would you suggest improving them?
>>
>> Also, do you actually _learn_ anything in tutorials?  I mean, do you
>> learn the underlying concepts, the basic knowledge that empowers you, or
>> do you only skim the surface of things and remain dependent on "experts"
>> to guide you?
>
> I should not point anyone by referring directly to their tutorials,
> but let say a came across a least 3 tutorials about concurrency
> programming with Ada that falls short of providing meaningful insight
> on the true capabilities of Ada in this field. They present task,
> delays, guard etc but don't put all these concepts in 'imaging'
> situations, which resumes the power of the tasking model. Those did
> not referred to typical uses of Ada, real problem solving that would
> enlighten its non naive usage. The offer for tutorials that presents
> a classical introduction to Ada as being a general programming
> language, with enhanced capabilities (tasking model, real-time annex
> etc), is too important. Many like me would benefit from more
> specialized tutorials, like let say a middle size embedded project,
> covering simply, many or all the main concepts provided by Ada and
> their sound usage.
>
> To be sure you understand my point here, I see this type of tutorial
> as something that can be quite long and involving. Rarely you can
> find that type of a document, that does not qualify as a book nor as a
> quick and dirty tutorial, as being organized halfway between a master
> thesis and a final year thesis. It treats a known subject (compared
> with the master thesis), with solid knowledge and neat understanding
> (compared with some final year thesis). These documents are great
> starters to light up curiosity and understanding to then permit
> austere books to sink in.

Ah, so your problem comes from the prejudice that books must be austere
(forgive me but I have a bad habit of poking where it hurts, without
being too shy about it). John Barnes' book[1] is anything *but*
austere; I highly recommend it. Also there was a thread here on
comp.lang.ada this week with several good suggestions of books about Ada
tasking.

Also, have you looked at the free online book "Ada 95: The Craft Of
Object-Oriented Programming"[2] by John English? Chapter 19 covers
tasking.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Ada-2005-John-Barnes/dp/0321340787
[2] http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je/adacraft/

Granted, these are not tutorials; they are books. If the only problem
with books is that they are austere, then surely there must be a way to
turn them into cheery tutorials?

>> It would be constructive if you could be more specific.  In
>> particular I would be very interested in ideas on how to improve the
>> first contact a newbie can have with Ada.
>
> Oh yes, I have ideas!
>
> 1. From my searches, it seems most people active with Ada are
> registered and composed article on Ada Programming (Wikibooks). Tell
> me if I am wrong?

You are wrong. Unfortunately, most of the Ada programmers are inactive
on the Internet; they work in stealth (or even secret) mode. What you
see on the Internet is perhaps 1% of all Ada programmers. In my view,
this is unfortunate but I can't do anything to change that.

> 2. A stable Ada home should be enforced (it confuses the newbs not to
> know where this month, this year you guys are). Involved people will
> change. Their effort are precious and you don't want 'tribal' data.
> Wikibooks being an independent Wikimedia Foundation project has low
> risk of vanishing in foreseeable future and anyone can add centralized
> efforts.

That's what you get for being an open ISO standard :) Anyone with enough
understanding (or misunderstandings...) of the language is free to start
their own web site; this has happened several times in the past. I
consider the Ada Information Clearinghouse[3] to be the "central hub" of
Ada (it has been so for many years). Other people may have different
opinions but, at least, there is some *funding* for maintaining this
site, so it has some semblance of guarantee for longevity.

[3] http://www.adaic.com

> 3. Gather all interesting internet links on 'tribal' Ada material to
> this page. Next post by newbs asking for Ada resources, be coherent
> and send it to a single HOME.

That's what I do all the time, to people who ask here on comp.lang.ada.
I cannot do anything about web forums, sorry.

> 4. Face lift, in the form of reorganization not visual style, to Ada
> Programming (Wikibooks)! [...]

OK, these are more specific and can result in tangible improvements.
Thanks for that.

--
Ludovic Brenta.
From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) on 13 Jun 2010 15:54
Le Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:25:18 +0200, Ludovic Brenta
<ludovic(a)ludovic-brenta.org> a écrit:
> consider the Ada Information Clearinghouse[3] to be the "central hub" of
Hub is indeed the good word: “if it's not there, it's linked from there”

--
There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check.
--# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho;
--# assert Ada;
-- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion
-- and start with new conclusion as premise.
From: zeta_no on 13 Jun 2010 16:35

> That's what you get for being an open ISO standard :) Anyone with enough
> understanding (or misunderstandings...) of the language is free to start
> their own web site; this has happened several times in the past.  I
> consider the Ada Information Clearinghouse[3] to be the "central hub" of
> Ada (it has been so for many years).  Other people may have different
> opinions but, at least, there is some *funding* for maintaining this
> site, so it has some semblance of guarantee for longevity.
>
> [3]http://www.adaic.com

Good to know, thanks. Now let me ask you a question. Do you think
the image of a product or a technology is important right now in
2010? Do you think the imaging phenomenon is of importance when it
comes to attract people, seriously?

Sorry, I know Ada is about content and the image it radiates,
esthetically, maybe the least of your concern (I don't point you
directly Ludovic) but the web site of ADAIC is a time machine to
~1993. I came across that site often and I left it as many times
because I though this was an obsolete site!

Seriously, it needs refreshing!

My two cents.

Olivier

From: Ludovic Brenta on 13 Jun 2010 17:22
zeta_no writes on comp.lang.ada:
>> [3]http://www.adaic.com
>
> Good to know, thanks. Now let me ask you a question. Do you think
> the image of a product or a technology is important right now in 2010?
> Do you think the imaging phenomenon is of importance when it comes to
> attract people, seriously?
>
> Sorry, I know Ada is about content and the image it radiates,
> esthetically, maybe the least of your concern (I don't point you
> directly Ludovic) but the web site of ADAIC is a time machine to
> ~1993. I came across that site often and I left it as many times
> because I though this was an obsolete site!
>
> Seriously, it needs refreshing!

I agree. Maybe that's the problem with Ada people: they spend too much
time writing quality software and not enough doing marketing. I try to
do my part in the technical marketing department but I'm not a webmaster
or a graphics designer. I think you'd get the same kind of anwser from
most people on this newsgroup.

--
Ludovic Brenta.
From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) on 13 Jun 2010 18:35
Le Sun, 13 Jun 2010 23:22:39 +0200, Ludovic Brenta
<ludovic(a)ludovic-brenta.org> a écrit:
>> Sorry, I know Ada is about content and the image it radiates,
>> esthetically, maybe the least of your concern (I don't point you
>> directly Ludovic) but the web site of ADAIC is a time machine to
>> ~1993. I came across that site often and I left it as many times
>> because I though this was an obsolete site!
>>
>> Seriously, it needs refreshing!
>
> I agree. Maybe that's the problem with Ada people: they spend too much
> time writing quality software and not enough doing marketing. I try to
> do my part in the technical marketing department but I'm not a webmaster
> or a graphics designer. I think you'd get the same kind of anwser from
> most people on this newsgroup.
If may give my opinion.

1) Most of time, people who says “software designers are poor graphic
designers”, are themselves poor software designer. They stop on graphic
design, because this is the sole thing whose quality they are able to
evaluate (does not only applies to Ada, this also applies with web
applications written in JavaScript and the like).
2) People seeking for documentation, should be aware that, when seeking
for documentation, documentation should come first! Not graphical design!
What can you expect from someones who run away from a graphical design and
prefer to go elsewhere, with may be a better graphical design, but lower
quality documentation. Look at Jean Pierre Rosen's AdaControl : may some
others sites has a better graphical design than his one, but none has such
an application as AdaControl. A choice must be made and every one is
responsible for his/her choice.
3) AdaIC has a graphical identity, if it change it, pretty sure many body
gonna ask themselves what happened (“is it still the same AdaIC ?”)
4) AdaIC design is not so bad, it is even good (well balanced and
constant). Old fashioned ? What was nice 15 years ago is ugly now ? So
people 15 years ago all had bad taste ? Something is silly in this
assertion, and even some famous web designers agree that this is a silly
point of view (some lough out loud when they here about so called “Web 2.0
graphical style”).
5) If you want to differentiate from others, don't copy everyones else
graphical identity, get yours.

Hope I did no went too much off-topic.

--
There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check.
--# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho;
--# assert Ada;
-- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion
-- and start with new conclusion as premise.
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