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From: Michael on 20 Jun 2010 00:08
On 2010-06-19 15:59:10 -0400, Tzortzakakis Dimitris said:

> ? "Robert Coe" <bob(a)1776.COM> ?????? ??? ??????
> news:gcun16p2o3nent552otfr7jqr55ar0rf0l(a)4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:23:32 +0300, "Tzortzakakis Dimitris" <noone(a)nospam.com>
>> wrote:
>> :
>> : ? "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald(a)scs.uiuc.edu> ?????? ??? ??????
>> : news:hvbeui$ddv$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>> : > I've decided I need a new inkjet printer.
>> : >
>> : > My current Ep$on Photo Stylus 820 ink eater still works and,
>> : > except for one point, makes nice prints. But that one point
>> : > is driving me crazy.
>> : >
>> : > The problem is that using Epson's top grade glossy paper,
>> : > it does not print real black. No where near the density of
>> : > a genuine ordinary chromogenic old-fashioned wet process color print.
>> : >
>> : > What's the current state in printers for low-volume use? I'm interested in
>> : > the 8-inch wide ones or the next width step up (11 inches? 14?).
>> : Canon Pixma iP 4500 (IIRC the current model, I have the 4300).
>> : 5 separate inks (Cyan,Magenta, Yellow, Photo Black, Document Black).
>> : Optimum ink cost, because the tanks are, well, tanks and head is available
>> : separately (running smoothly after 3+ years and hundreds of printouts)
>> : Prints on printable cds and vds.
>> : Has a paper tray (better model has 2 trays IIRC) so you don't have to
>> : manually feed paper.
>> : A4 (letter) size.
>> : Prints on both sides of paper automatically (flips it).
>> : Price ~120 euros, ink tank ~14 euros (I use generic paper and have the tanks
>> : refilled with generic ink, excellent results-prints only smudge a bit).
>>
>> I was with you until that last line. How could it possibly be acceptable for
>> the prints to smudge at all?
> If you count the economic benefit of having the tanks refilled for 4
> euros, when an original tank costs 16 euros... That's four for the
> price of one! We accept smudged photos, FWIW, and BTW, it's greener to
> use the same cartridge again, instead of throwing it away, and buying a
> new one, and throwing away again all packaging material.

I don't know how it is done in Europe, but in the US you recycle your
cartridges. Many stores such as Staples have drop boxes, and some
companies, such as HP and Lexmark sell the cartridges with mailers to
send back the empties. I suppose they are really recycling what you
send them though I can't be sure it isn't just a "green" ruse.
--
Michael

From: Tzortzakakis Dimitris on 20 Jun 2010 14:23

? "scott nalter" <snalter(a)neveryoumind.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:to8q16dpgqtlt0ttbrfvreq1dbq88l7q4n(a)4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 22:59:10 +0300, "Tzortzakakis Dimitris"
> <noone(a)nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>? "Robert Coe" <bob(a)1776.COM> ?????? ??? ??????
>>news:gcun16p2o3nent552otfr7jqr55ar0rf0l(a)4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:23:32 +0300, "Tzortzakakis Dimitris"
>>> <noone(a)nospam.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> :
>>> : ? "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald(a)scs.uiuc.edu> ?????? ??? ??????
>>> : news:hvbeui$ddv$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>>> : > I've decided I need a new inkjet printer.
>>> : >
>>> : > My current Ep$on Photo Stylus 820 ink eater still works and,
>>> : > except for one point, makes nice prints. But that one point
>>> : > is driving me crazy.
>>> : >
>>> : > The problem is that using Epson's top grade glossy paper,
>>> : > it does not print real black. No where near the density of
>>> : > a genuine ordinary chromogenic old-fashioned wet process color
>>> print.
>>> : >
>>> : > What's the current state in printers for low-volume use? I'm
>>> interested in
>>> : > the 8-inch wide ones or the next width step up (11 inches? 14?).
>>> : Canon Pixma iP 4500 (IIRC the current model, I have the 4300).
>>> : 5 separate inks (Cyan,Magenta, Yellow, Photo Black, Document Black).
>>> : Optimum ink cost, because the tanks are, well, tanks and head is
>>> available
>>> : separately (running smoothly after 3+ years and hundreds of printouts)
>>> : Prints on printable cds and vds.
>>> : Has a paper tray (better model has 2 trays IIRC) so you don't have to
>>> : manually feed paper.
>>> : A4 (letter) size.
>>> : Prints on both sides of paper automatically (flips it).
>>> : Price ~120 euros, ink tank ~14 euros (I use generic paper and have the
>>> tanks
>>> : refilled with generic ink, excellent results-prints only smudge a
>>> bit).
>>>
>>> I was with you until that last line. How could it possibly be acceptable
>>> for
>>> the prints to smudge at all?
>>If you count the economic benefit of having the tanks refilled for 4
>>euros,
>>when an original tank costs 16 euros... That's four for the price of one!
>>We
>>accept smudged photos, FWIW, and BTW, it's greener to use the same
>>cartridge again, instead of throwing it away, and buying a new one, and
>>throwing away again all packaging material.
>
> Smudging depends more on the paper used than the inks used. If the surface
> cannot adequately trap the ink then you'll get smudging. Any half-decent
> paper today will absorb, trap, and stabilize both pigment and dye inks.
> Perhaps you are using pigment inks on a dye-inks-only paper, or
> vice-versa.
I got best results with Canon paper, and Canon inks, obviously, but Canon
"everyday" papers go for 10 euros per 100(a)4X5", and Canon inks go for 16
euros a tank (these inks are supposed to be guaranteed for 100 years). On
the contrary, generic paper from lidl www.lidl.co.uk goes for 4 euros per
100, and my tanks refilled with generic ink and the chip resetted with a
chip resetter, 4 euros per tank. So, if we take the worst scenario, that all
3 tanks need refilling for 100 prints (C-M-Y), it's 4 euros for paper plus
12 euros for refilling all 3 tanks, 16 euros so 16 cents per print. This is
cheaper than most local photofinishig labs. ( I obviously go to the greek
lidl, www.lidl.gr , but I don't think that anybody else speaks greek here).



--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
hordad AT otenet DOT gr



From: Tzortzakakis Dimitris on 20 Jun 2010 14:29

� "Pete" <available.on.request(a)aserver.invalid> ������ ��� ������
news:2010061921171113471-availableonrequest(a)aserverinvalid...
> On 2010-06-19 20:59:10 +0100, Tzortzakakis Dimitris said:
>
>> ? "Robert Coe" <bob(a)1776.COM> ?????? ??? ??????
>> news:gcun16p2o3nent552otfr7jqr55ar0rf0l(a)4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:23:32 +0300, "Tzortzakakis Dimitris"
>>> <noone(a)nospam.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> :
>>> : ? "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald(a)scs.uiuc.edu> ?????? ??? ??????
>>> : news:hvbeui$ddv$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>>> : > I've decided I need a new inkjet printer.
>>> : >
>>> : > My current Ep$on Photo Stylus 820 ink eater still works and,
>>> : > except for one point, makes nice prints. But that one point
>>> : > is driving me crazy.
>>> : >
>>> : > The problem is that using Epson's top grade glossy paper,
>>> : > it does not print real black. No where near the density of
>>> : > a genuine ordinary chromogenic old-fashioned wet process color
>>> print.
>>> : >
>>> : > What's the current state in printers for low-volume use? I'm
>>> interested in
>>> : > the 8-inch wide ones or the next width step up (11 inches? 14?).
>>> : Canon Pixma iP 4500 (IIRC the current model, I have the 4300).
>>> : 5 separate inks (Cyan,Magenta, Yellow, Photo Black, Document Black).
>>> : Optimum ink cost, because the tanks are, well, tanks and head is
>>> available
>>> : separately (running smoothly after 3+ years and hundreds of printouts)
>>> : Prints on printable cds and vds.
>>> : Has a paper tray (better model has 2 trays IIRC) so you don't have to
>>> : manually feed paper.
>>> : A4 (letter) size.
>>> : Prints on both sides of paper automatically (flips it).
>>> : Price ~120 euros, ink tank ~14 euros (I use generic paper and have the
>>> tanks
>>> : refilled with generic ink, excellent results-prints only smudge a
>>> bit).
>>>
>>> I was with you until that last line. How could it possibly be acceptable
>>> for
>>> the prints to smudge at all?
>> If you count the economic benefit of having the tanks refilled for 4
>> euros, when an original tank costs 16 euros... That's four for the price
>> of one! We accept smudged photos, FWIW, and BTW, it's greener to use the
>> same cartridge again, instead of throwing it away, and buying a new one,
>> and throwing away again all packaging material.
>
> Just something to consider: find a really good printing company. The major
> expense will be mailing, but less expensive than buying a printer and
> feeding it with ink, better quality, and overall much more friendly to the
> environment. Turnaround is two days max.
I could just use a local photofinishing lab, more expensive than doing it on
my own, and I already have the printer, and as in my film days I had a
complete colour darkroom (I also printed Cibachrome), so I have got the
habit of printing my own prints. It's much more convenient in the digital
age. But, the photo labs use traditional chromogenic paper, and I don't
think it's eco-friendly, even if they recycle the silver that ends up in the
bleach-fix bath (Colour developer, bleach-fix, stabilizer).



--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
hordad AT otenet DOT gr



From: Tzortzakakis Dimitris on 20 Jun 2010 14:36

? "Michael" <adunc79617(a)mypacks.net> ?????? ??? ??????
news:201006200008524469-adunc79617(a)mypacksnet...
> On 2010-06-19 15:59:10 -0400, Tzortzakakis Dimitris said:
>
>> ? "Robert Coe" <bob(a)1776.COM> ?????? ??? ??????
>> news:gcun16p2o3nent552otfr7jqr55ar0rf0l(a)4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:23:32 +0300, "Tzortzakakis Dimitris"
>>> <noone(a)nospam.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> :
>>> : ? "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald(a)scs.uiuc.edu> ?????? ??? ??????
>>> : news:hvbeui$ddv$1(a)news.eternal-september.org...
>>> : > I've decided I need a new inkjet printer.
>>> : >
>>> : > My current Ep$on Photo Stylus 820 ink eater still works and,
>>> : > except for one point, makes nice prints. But that one point
>>> : > is driving me crazy.
>>> : >
>>> : > The problem is that using Epson's top grade glossy paper,
>>> : > it does not print real black. No where near the density of
>>> : > a genuine ordinary chromogenic old-fashioned wet process color
>>> print.
>>> : >
>>> : > What's the current state in printers for low-volume use? I'm
>>> interested in
>>> : > the 8-inch wide ones or the next width step up (11 inches? 14?).
>>> : Canon Pixma iP 4500 (IIRC the current model, I have the 4300).
>>> : 5 separate inks (Cyan,Magenta, Yellow, Photo Black, Document Black).
>>> : Optimum ink cost, because the tanks are, well, tanks and head is
>>> available
>>> : separately (running smoothly after 3+ years and hundreds of printouts)
>>> : Prints on printable cds and vds.
>>> : Has a paper tray (better model has 2 trays IIRC) so you don't have to
>>> : manually feed paper.
>>> : A4 (letter) size.
>>> : Prints on both sides of paper automatically (flips it).
>>> : Price ~120 euros, ink tank ~14 euros (I use generic paper and have the
>>> tanks
>>> : refilled with generic ink, excellent results-prints only smudge a
>>> bit).
>>>
>>> I was with you until that last line. How could it possibly be acceptable
>>> for
>>> the prints to smudge at all?
>> If you count the economic benefit of having the tanks refilled for 4
>> euros, when an original tank costs 16 euros... That's four for the price
>> of one! We accept smudged photos, FWIW, and BTW, it's greener to use the
>> same cartridge again, instead of throwing it away, and buying a new one,
>> and throwing away again all packaging material.
>
> I don't know how it is done in Europe, but in the US you recycle your
> cartridges. Many stores such as Staples have drop boxes, and some
> companies, such as HP and Lexmark sell the cartridges with mailers to send
> back the empties. I suppose they are really recycling what you send them
> though I can't be sure it isn't just a "green" ruse.
Yeah, the same here, large chain stores like Plaisio (www.plaisio.gr ) even
give a 1 euro discount, if you bring in your old cartridge for recycling,
and www.ote.gr the state telephone company has even boxes to recycle
cartridges. But, with refilling, the only thing that gets thrown away, is
the plastic bag that contains the tank, while with an original, you discard
the original cartridge (plus chip), the cardboard box that contains the new
one, the instruction leaflet, the plastic bag, the plastic shrink-wrap seal,
and the plastic tap that seals the ink outlet opening. Plus, its 4 times
more expensive than having it refilled:-)


--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
hordad AT otenet DOT gr



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