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From: Dmitry Torokhov on 13 May 2010 13:20 On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 09:54:00AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > > On Thu, 13 May 2010, Dmitry Torokhov wrote: > > > > Apple does proper thing in BIOS and omits keyboard and mouse PNP > > devices, but because of other players we do not really trust PNP BIOS > > and resort to banding on ports directly - there are cases when box has > > mouse and/or keyboard but they are not present in BIOS. Damed if you do, > > damned if you don't... > > Umm. No. > > PnP information _commonly_ doesn't inclure PS/2 ports, even when they > exist. Lack of PnP information about the keyboard port means absolutely > nothing, and anybody who tells you otherwise is totally and utterly wrong. > I think on the newer hardware PNP (or rather ACPI mapped onto PNP) usually matches the reality. > So don't confuse this with PnP issues. That's a total red herring, and > Apple is _not_at_all_ "doing the proper thing in the BIOS". > > Quite the reverse. Apple is very clearly doing something horribly _wrong_ > in their BIOS. Don't give them kudos for being incompetent morons. > > Just google for > > "Probing ports directly" "i8042 KBD port" > > and you'll get a lot of hits. That's not because those machines have wrong > PnP tables - it's because fundamentally PNP is a joke, and on PC's what is > much more important is "standard IO ports". > > For example, in that thread, Bastien is quoted: > > > In other words, on x86, if PNP and/or ACPI don't indicate any PS/2 > > controller exists, we randomly bang on the ports in the expectation > > they'll be there anyway. This seems rather misguided. > > and all that tells me is that Bastien doesn't know what he is doing. It is > _not_ "randomly bang" - it's called standard PC hardware. Do Macs qualify to be called "standard PC hardware" though? Again, there are BootCamp BIOSes that allow you booting XP on them, and most likely newer models already have that ironed out, but we can't expect older ones to survive port probing. > And it's not > "misguided" - it's very much correct and required, exactly because PnP > itself is the misguided aborted fetus of a braindamaged mind. > > We do not trust BIOS tables, because BIOS writers are invariably totally > incompetent crack-addicted monkeys. If they weren't, they wouldn't be BIOS > writers. QED. And in fact the Apple problem is an _example_ of this BIOS > writer incompetence, not some shining example of them doing something > right. Well, they got PNP tables right ;) -- Dmitry -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
From: Linus Torvalds on 13 May 2010 13:40 On Thu, 13 May 2010, Dmitry Torokhov wrote: > > I think on the newer hardware PNP (or rather ACPI mapped onto PNP) usually > matches the reality. Dmitry, you're just making things up. I have in front of me a Core i5-670. You can't get much newer than that. And yes, it has a PS/2 connector at the back. And lookie here: [ 1.756777] PNP: No PS/2 controller found. Probing ports directly. [ 1.760645] serio: i8042 KBD port at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 [ 1.762087] serio: i8042 AUX port at 0x60,0x64 irq 12 [ 1.763591] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice so let it go. You're wrong. PS/2 is a legacy device, and exactly like the legacy IO memory region in 0xa000-0xffff (or the motherboard IO port region 0x00-0xff) it may not be mentioned by the BIOS tables. But it's still there. This is also why I think it _would_ be acceptable to say that if you boot from EFI, you have to find the PnP devices. The whole (and only, as far as I know) point of EFI was that "legacy-free" thing. Linus -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
From: Dmitry Torokhov on 13 May 2010 14:20 On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:30:23AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > > On Thu, 13 May 2010, Dmitry Torokhov wrote: > > > > I think on the newer hardware PNP (or rather ACPI mapped onto PNP) usually > > matches the reality. > > Dmitry, you're just making things up. > > I have in front of me a Core i5-670. You can't get much newer than that. > And yes, it has a PS/2 connector at the back. And lookie here: > > [ 1.756777] PNP: No PS/2 controller found. Probing ports directly. > [ 1.760645] serio: i8042 KBD port at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 > [ 1.762087] serio: i8042 AUX port at 0x60,0x64 irq 12 > [ 1.763591] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice > You don't have anything plugged into the ports though, do you? I wonder what your DSDT looks like. > so let it go. You're wrong. PS/2 is a legacy device, and exactly like the > legacy IO memory region in 0xa000-0xffff (or the motherboard IO port > region 0x00-0xff) it may not be mentioned by the BIOS tables. But it's > still there. > > This is also why I think it _would_ be acceptable to say that if you boot > from EFI, you have to find the PnP devices. The whole (and only, as far as > I know) point of EFI was that "legacy-free" thing. Is there an interface a driver can use to query the style of boot used? -- Dmitry -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
From: Linus Torvalds on 13 May 2010 16:00 On Thu, 13 May 2010, Dmitry Torokhov wrote: > > Is there an interface a driver can use to query the style of boot used? Maybe 'efi_enabled' will do. I haven't checked exact semantics of that flag. And right now we don't even know if Bastien even uses EFI, or boots a traditional kernel image through bootcamp. Linus -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
From: Matthew Garrett on 13 May 2010 16:20
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 08:50:31AM -0700, Dmitry Torokhov wrote: > Indeed most of them do just work. My Dell T110 for example boots just > fine and it only has USB, no PS/2 ports. However there is a rather > important difference I think - these other boxes are supposed to work > with multiple versions of Windows which, as far as I know, do probe for > the i8042. Apple only supports bootcamp on certain BIOSes and does not > really expect anything to touch these ports. If you're not using bootcamp then you're booting via EFI, and in that case I think it's probably reasonable to require that the keyboard be provided via PNP or flagged in the XDST. -- Matthew Garrett | mjg59(a)srcf.ucam.org -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo(a)vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ |