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From: Dave Searles on 8 Oct 2009 01:26 Peter Duniho wrote: > On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 18:53:29 -0700, Arne Vajhøj <arne(a)vajhoej.dk> wrote: >> [personal attack deleted] > > Hey! I resemble that remark! That you do.
From: Arved Sandstrom on 8 Oct 2009 06:22 Dave Searles wrote: [ SNIP ] > The way it was phrased, it sounded less like you were saying "job ads > are fucked up" than you were saying "a developer should find jobs by > some other, mysterious and unspecified way, and if they are using want > ads instead, they're an idiot". The key differences being: > > 1. Who's the idiot -- in one case, there are idiot job marketers, and in > the other, idiot developers plus some clever stratagem to weed them > out in the hiring process. > 2. The existence of an alternative -- in one case, one gets an IT job > the same way one gets any other, though the process sucks; in the > other, the "normal" way is just a Turing tar-pit for weeding out > those not "in the know" about the secret *other* way that everyone > in this thread that's in the know is implicitly sworn not to reveal > to non-insiders. Oh, and you're implied to be in the know and I, > despite my *current* job, am implied to nonetheless be an outsider. > > Of course, only option 1 seems reasonable to the non-paranoid mind here, > yet the way your previous statement was phrased, it seemed to hint that > you believed number 2 applied... I didn't use the word idiot and I didn't even think the word idiot, let alone imply it. However, I do believe that a developer who relies only or primarily on want ads in papers or on employment websites is hurting themselves badly. There's no mystery about the process that works, and I didn't suggest that it was mysterious. It's how I've gotten every IT job I ever had, and it's how most developers I know have gotten all or most of their jobs: networking. Things like LinkedIn make that process easier these days, but it's been the best way of getting IT employment for decades no matter what. Keep your ears open, stay in touch with former colleagues, attend IT organizational functions, schmooze, toot your horn as required, etc. That's how you get the jobs that never get advertised, which is most of them. Even using a recruiter is considerably better than relying on want ads. You can keep a relationship with a reliable recruiter going for years; it's not like they drop you off their lists when you are employed. They are there when you need 'em, and once you've got an established track record with them (for example, they've placed you twice and you did fine both times) they'll put in a fair amount of effort to find you something...after all, it's in their interests to find you a job. AHS
From: Dave Searles on 8 Oct 2009 11:32
Arved Sandstrom wrote: > Dave Searles wrote: > [ SNIP ] > >> The way it was phrased, it sounded less like you were saying "job ads >> are fucked up" than you were saying "a developer should find jobs by >> some other, mysterious and unspecified way, and if they are using want >> ads instead, they're an idiot". The key differences being: >> >> 1. Who's the idiot -- in one case, there are idiot job marketers, and in >> the other, idiot developers plus some clever stratagem to weed them >> out in the hiring process. >> 2. The existence of an alternative -- in one case, one gets an IT job >> the same way one gets any other, though the process sucks; in the >> other, the "normal" way is just a Turing tar-pit for weeding out >> those not "in the know" about the secret *other* way that everyone >> in this thread that's in the know is implicitly sworn not to reveal >> to non-insiders. Oh, and you're implied to be in the know and I, >> despite my *current* job, am implied to nonetheless be an outsider. >> >> Of course, only option 1 seems reasonable to the non-paranoid mind >> here, yet the way your previous statement was phrased, it seemed to >> hint that you believed number 2 applied... > > [states number 2 applies] > > There's no mystery about the process that works, and I didn't suggest > that it was mysterious. By not stating it at all, combined with it not being the obvious, you made it mysterious. > It's how I've gotten every IT job I ever had, > and it's how most developers I know have gotten all or most of their > jobs: networking. Things like LinkedIn make that process easier these > days, but it's been the best way of getting IT employment for decades no > matter what. Keep your ears open, stay in touch with former colleagues, > attend IT organizational functions, schmooze, toot your horn as > required, etc. That's how you get the jobs that never get advertised, > which is most of them. And that's a problem. How is a fresh graduate from a CS degree or IT college supposed to actually find work? Don't forget, you start off knowing no-one. Unless you happen to be born to parents in IT, or something. > Even using a recruiter is considerably better than relying on want ads. > You can keep a relationship with a reliable recruiter going for years; > it's not like they drop you off their lists when you are employed. They > are there when you need 'em, and once you've got an established track > record with them (for example, they've placed you twice and you did fine > both times) they'll put in a fair amount of effort to find you > something...after all, it's in their interests to find you a job. The route I took, but involves luck. Everything else seems to also involve luck or cost money. Finding a job really ought to be free of charge and reasonably quick, given that some people looking for jobs just might *conceivably* be in financial dire straits. |