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From: Howard Brazee on 21 Jan 2010 13:24
On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:51:21 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf(a)panix.com () wrote:

>Years ago I formulated something along the lines of 'If in a society which
>has an ethos of 'a job well-done for a buck well-paid' and a government
>which offers salaries below industry norms then you will, most likely, end
>up with a civil service populated by dilettantes and second-raters.'

Where salaries of public servants have increased, what has been the
change of value of their services?

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison
From: Anonymous on 21 Jan 2010 13:41
In article <4s6hl5h4f1hef05e802ot7pkj24n5qd65r(a)4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard(a)brazee.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:51:21 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf(a)panix.com () wrote:
>
>>Years ago I formulated something along the lines of 'If in a society which
>>has an ethos of 'a job well-done for a buck well-paid' and a government
>>which offers salaries below industry norms then you will, most likely, end
>>up with a civil service populated by dilettantes and second-raters.'
>
>Where salaries of public servants have increased, what has been the
>change of value of their services?

I have no idea where one might turn to track inflation-adjusted salaries
for comparable civil-servant and private-sector professionals, Mr Brazee,
but I've been told that 'value' is a rather... multivalent term.

DD

From: Howard Brazee on 21 Jan 2010 14:19
On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:41:46 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf(a)panix.com () wrote:

>>Where salaries of public servants have increased, what has been the
>>change of value of their services?
>
>I have no idea where one might turn to track inflation-adjusted salaries
>for comparable civil-servant and private-sector professionals, Mr Brazee,
>but I've been told that 'value' is a rather... multivalent term.

Surely.

I suppose a starting point is with school teachers, although many of
the private schools had nuns teaching for less than public school
teachers. In the last couple of generations, school teachers
salaries have increased relative to other jobs. Certainly there have
been changes in what teachers and other people do, but it is not
obvious to me that public educational productivity has increased
relative to other jobs.

I'm not advocating that we cut back on school salaries. I'm simply
not accepting the premise that when we pay more, we get what we pay
for.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison
From: Pete Dashwood on 21 Jan 2010 16:15
Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:51:21 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf(a)panix.com () wrote:
>
>> Years ago I formulated something along the lines of 'If in a society
>> which has an ethos of 'a job well-done for a buck well-paid' and a
>> government which offers salaries below industry norms then you will,
>> most likely, end up with a civil service populated by dilettantes
>> and second-raters.'
>
> Where salaries of public servants have increased, what has been the
> change of value of their services?

Our Civil Servants are paid above the average for the same job in the
private sector. We don't (generally) seem to have any better service from
them. (Mind you, we can't know how bad things would be if we paid them
less... :-))

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."


From: Pete Dashwood on 21 Jan 2010 16:47
Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:41:46 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf(a)panix.com () wrote:
>
>>> Where salaries of public servants have increased, what has been the
>>> change of value of their services?
>>
>> I have no idea where one might turn to track inflation-adjusted
>> salaries for comparable civil-servant and private-sector
>> professionals, Mr Brazee, but I've been told that 'value' is a
>> rather... multivalent term.
>
> Surely.
>
> I suppose a starting point is with school teachers, although many of
> the private schools had nuns teaching for less than public school
> teachers. In the last couple of generations, school teachers
> salaries have increased relative to other jobs. Certainly there have
> been changes in what teachers and other people do, but it is not
> obvious to me that public educational productivity has increased
> relative to other jobs.
>
> I'm not advocating that we cut back on school salaries. I'm simply
> not accepting the premise that when we pay more, we get what we pay
> for.

Let me start by saying that I quit teaching at a very early age, because I
realised that (unless I married a teacher and we had a joint income - a
number of my friends at Training College did this...) there was unlikely to
be a reasonable living in it. I hope and believe things have come a long way
since then.

But teachers may not be a "fair" indicator of public service pay scales.

I don't think it is possible to tell whether paying more attracts better
people in the Civil Service because we have no way of comparing what would
happen if we DIDN'T do that.

There is an argument that really enthusiastic, competent people will not go
into the Civil Service at ANY price because they know the bureaucracy will
simply grind them down and frustrate them to the point where they will quit
anyway. Also, such people can usually find a more satisfying job in the
private sector.

Certainly, in New Zealand, in the middle of the last century, the Civil
Service was where people went when they couldn't get a "proper job". Young
people who were "between jobs" would simply sign up and work in the Post
Office or a local Hospital, or Administration centre, until such time as
something they really wanted to do came along. I don't think the pay scale
had much bearing on it; it was just better than being unemployed. (That was
in the days when there was still a social stigma attached to unemployment.
Those days are long gone and many young people today are quite happy to take
their unemployment money and live at the beach. 5 unemployed youngsters will
generate a joint income of over $1000 a week and this is more than enough to
rent a house and buy food while they dedicate their time to surfing :-))

I know at least one well-known NZ writer (we were friends at the same school
in Wellington) who signed up with the Nationalised New Zealand Broadcasting
Service simply because he needed a job and joining the Civil Service was
what people did when they were out of work. He got the opportunity to work
on a new show that was being made for the newly arrived Television service
and married one of the co-writers. The two of them went on to bigger and
better things and my friend has just finished a year as Writer in residence
at a major North Island University. He has had numerous books published (all
of them are of very high quality and really excellent reads) and has
recently retired with his wife to the South Island, due to ill health.

The point is that sometimes the Civil Service can be a catalyst.

There is an old saying that only monkeys work for peanuts, but I don't think
it applies to the Civil Service. Not everyone who is a Civil Servant is a
monkey, and their salary scales are certainly not peanuts.

I believe that people who have the mentality for the job (a strict
hierarchy, clearly defined lines of operation, regular, almost automatic
marginal pay increases, "security") will be attracted to it and I don't
think the pay scales are a big consideration.

But I can't prove this position either way.

Doc may be right, or he may not be.

I don't think it is possible to confirm in any meaingful way that would be
acceptable to a scientist.

Meantime, we just have to live with the Civil Servants we get... :-)

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."


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