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From: glird on 5 Aug 2010 23:12 On Aug 4, 11:27 pm, Tom Roberts wrote: >glird wrote: > >>< Since time dilation and mass variance (in grams) have been experimentally verified, they DO pertain to physical realities. > > > One must define the terms MUCH > more carefully. Good idea. In physics, âtimeâ is the indications of the hands of a given clock. âTime dilationâ means that the time of a given clock is dilated (i.e. one second is larger than that of another clock.) âMassâ denotes a quantity of matter, whether or not it has weight (in grams) in a g- field. âMass varianceâ means âa change in the massâ of a given object. âExperimentally verifiedâ means that the results of experiments agree with predicted results based on the given conditions. âPhysical realitiesâ means that which exists in the universe, whether measured or not, and whether or not physics understands what they are. >< In SR, "time dilation" and "mass variance" do not affect the object ITSELF, they are artifacts of measuring a moving object. > In SR they do. In Minkowskiâs mathematics (Minky-math) they donât. >< And we no longer say "mass variance", we call the quantity that varies "energy", not "mass". > Given that the equation e = mc^2 (energy equals mass times {the speed of light in vacuo} squared) has been experimentally verified, explain how the quantity of energy can vary if the m and c do not. >< When you rotate a ladder to get through a narrow doorway, you do not affect the ladder itself, but the rotation has physical consequences. Similarly in SR, relative velocity is an analogous rotation that does not affect the object itself, but has physical consequences. > In SR, Einstein assumed that the axes of differently moving systems do NOT rotate. >>< Einstein wrote, "It is essential to have time defined by means of stationary clocks in the stationary system, and the time now defined being appropriate to the stationary system we call it `the time of the stationary system'." He was, as usual, rightly wrong. (Though he was right in that only a stationary esynched system would have synchronous clocks, he was wrong about it being "essential that etc." Indeed, since there is no such thing in the universe as a stationary system, his Special Theory, as he said in his general theory, is restricted to a hypothetical point. > > ><You did not read his paper carefully enough. He EXPLICITLY said that he was using the term "stationary system" as a LABEL, to distinguish it from other inertial systems. It is a label that can apply to ANY inertial frame (see the first paragraph of I.1 of Einstein's 1905 paper "Zur Elektrodynamik bewegter Körper"). In SR there is no need for any stationary system in YOUR sense -- you applied a PUN and read more into his word choice than is actually there. > True. It was, however, implicit that clocks set by his method would be synchronous if and BECAUSE the given system (K) was physically at rest in his âempty spaceâ. I ask you again, Tom: Please discuss with me, in a non- confrontational way, the meaning of each consecutive step and equation in Einsteinâs paper. The purpose is to put to rest the myriad arguments on these newsgroups, as to what âthese wordsâ or âthatâ equation mean; both to Einstein and by themselves. Here is an example: In Eâs SR paper he set forth the thesis that if a moving system set its clocks to read the same times as those of âthe stationary system, Kâ, they would disagree with cs K as to the simultaneity of two given events. In HIS mind, the reason for that was because clocks of an Esynched system would NOT have identical settings as each other, but would lag behind each other in their direction of motion by âvx/c^2 seconds. (In Minkowskiâs theory, that doesnât happen. Instead, he says that the axes of the moving system rotate in spacetime, by exactly the amount required to let the projected results fit the LTE's predictions.) However!! Here is something copied from my 2007 book, âA Flower for Einsteinâ. ________ And then suddenly at this late temporal juncture; in an exhilarating history of the drummers from forever, I came upon an after the fact passage that becomes the opening pulse of a very different beat. From "Drumming at the Edge of Magic", by Mickey Hart â who found that each separate individual in a discontinuous group is really part of a rhythmic continuum â written with the help of master story teller Jay Stevens; Harper, San Francisco; 1990, page 121: "Science knows one big thing about rhythm, something it calls 'the Law of Entrainment'. The Law of Entrainment, which seems to be fundamental to the universe, was first discovered in 1665 by the Dutch scientist Christian Huygens. Huygens noticed that if two clocks were placed next to each other, within a very short time they would lock up and tick in perfect synchrony. "Entrainment: If two rhythms are nearly the same, and their sources are in close proximity, they will always entrain. Why? The best theory is that nature is efficient and it takes less energy to pulse together than in opposition." If matter were made of separate atoms bouncing off each other in a background empty space, shared and averaged momentum would reach equilibrium when ALL the local atoms moved back and forth together with each other. Any that didn't would get knocked on the head a few times and even the drummers would temporarily lose the beat until the rhythm of the group restored harmony. "Huygens noticed that if two clocks were placed next to each other, within a very short time they would lock up and tick in perfect synchrony." Therefore, in terms of the kinetic atomic theory local time was a vagrant noise and Relativity was doomed two hundred and forty years before it was conceived. The real "best theory", however, is that Nature always feels the rhythmically radiating pressure gradients; and the thereby energized compressible medium dances to and fro in pulsating dinsity gradient response to the self synchronizing, accompanying transmitting two way rebounding beat; for which Maxwell's equations are a quantitatively accurate symbolic score whose music has never been fully and understandably heard. Physical reality will not let infinitesimally close clocks remain out of synch. But the groove is an omni way street and the tempo takes time to travel. If it travels at c while the players move at v, then "synchrony" remains undefined. ________ Having contemplated that off and on for several years, here was my conclusion: 7/10/2010. The speed of light will always be c, when measured by a Q,q,q-contracted self-esynched system, regardless of the value of its own velocity wrt the etheric matrix of the parent unit. Demo for v = .6c, Q = .64. Let a ray go from x' = 0 to x' = 1. It will take Qx'/(c-v) = .64/.4 = 1.6 seconds to reach x' = 1 and Qx'/(c+v) = .64/1.6 = .4 seconds to get back; so the round-trip will take 2 seconds. The one way outbound time will be t - vx'/c2 = 1.6 - .6 = 1 second as marked by the self-synched system. Demo for v = .5c, Q = .75. Let a ray go from x' = 0 to x' = 1. It will take Qx'/(c-v) = .75/.5 = 1.5 seconds to reach x' = 1 and Qx'/(c+v) = .75/1.5 = .5 seconds to get back; so the round-trip will take 2 seconds. The outbound time will be t - vx'/c2 = 1.5 - .5 = 1 second as marked by the entrainment-synched system. In both cases, as in all others, the speed of light will be c = dx/dt = 1 light-unit/second as plotted that way. Complication: Suppose the moving systemâs density has changed within the closed physical system that shrunk by Q,q,q. Then the speed of light will also have changed within it! (See 1] M&M; 2] the Pan Am experiment; 3] my smoke one, 4] the demo that clocks run faster at a higher altitude in a g-field; 5] the size of a proton is a function of the weight of a circling thing such as a muon versus an electron. For the latter, the proton is about 4% smaller. ("To their astonishment, the scientists detected x-rays at an assumed proton radius of 0.8418 femtometersâ4 percent smaller than expected.") Given that there is no such thing as a really stationary system, the new purpose is to prove my recent hypothesis: ANY system may be take as the viewing system, and relative to it ALL other systems will appear to be shrunken by q,1,1; and their times will appear to run slower by q; which is WHY the LTE have been experimentally confirmed. As of now, it is easily seen that if two Q,q,q;1 deformed systems, moving in opposite directions at the same speed wrt an ABSOLUTELY stationary middle system, plot each other, since their lengths are identically deformed, unit-rods in the perpendicular directions are and will appear identical in both systems, so phi(+/- v) = 1; and when measured with their esynched clocks, their identical lengths in the axis of motion will appear q contracted, and the identical rates of their clocks will be measured by the other as running q-slow. Rather than hypothesize that âtherefore, if we dispense with a really stationary system, we can let any one of these Q,q,q shrunken ones be taken as âstationaryâ etcâ, I want to PROVE it is correct in reality, not just in mathematics! Q 1: How u gonna prove that a q-contracted vertical unit-rod that is .8 units long, will appear to be 1 unit long as measured by ALL differently moving systems, REGARDLESS of the variable values of v? 7/11: There is no way for a physical system to be a universally extending frame of reference! The cs attached to one can extend only as far as _it_ does. Examples: The Earth extends to the limits of its own matter-unit; which moves in the cs centered on the Sun; which moves in a cs centered on the Milky Way, etc all the way up and down. The Pan Am experiment, and others, proved that. Therefore it is impossible for âa q-contracted vertical unit-rod that is .8 units longâ âto be 1 unit long as measured by ALL differently moving systems, REGARDLESS of the variable values of vâ.. Think about that and you will slowly understand it. Once you do, you will know why Einstein gave up almost his entire STR apparatus in order to construct GR. The only thing he kept was his Esynched clocks. He didnât know that clocks would esynch themselves. (âEsynchedâ clocks are set by Einsteinâs method; and âesynchedâ clocks automatically get the identical local-time offsets via entrainment.) Complication: If a cs canât extend past the limit of its own referent, then WHY have the LTE been experimentally confirmed? To answer that question we will have to look at the ways in which it was done. The object of that is to show that the experiments were restricted to within the frame of reference of matter-unit Earth. (Rays traveling east to west took more time to get from NY to California than rays from California to NY. Rather than let c therefore be variable, scientists take the Sun as the referent, and assign the reason for the difference in one-way times to the fact that Earth is rotating. As shown by the GPS satellite, clocks on Earth are not âreallyâ synchronous.) 8/5/2010: ââReallyâ synchronousâ means âhave identical settingsâ. The clocks on Earth may not be really synchronous, but they â as clocks on all systems regardless of their states of motion, are really esynched. Accordingly, the one ingredient that Einstein took from SR, his Esynched clocks, happens automatically by itself. Therefore, rather than having been âdoomed two hundred and forty years before it was conceivedâ, STR was conceptually present as long ago as mankind was able to conceive such things. Tom!! The purpose of that long harangue was to gain your attention wrt the following questions: 1. How do rotations and projections explain the length contractions found by using Esynched=esynched clocks to plot the positions of the ends of a relatively moving rod? 2. How does Minkowski-rotations and projections explain the esynching per se? glird
From: Koobee Wublee on 6 Aug 2010 02:57 On Aug 5, 12:31 pm, Tom Roberts < wrote: > PD wrote: > > Lots of important physical properties in physics are > > "merely observer-dependent quantities". Kinetic energy and momentum, > > for instance, both of which play a key role in conservation laws that > > are considered central to physics. > > I disagree. Kinetic energy and (3-)momentum are not involved in any important > conservation laws. Both are merely related to parts of the actual law: > conservation of 4-momentum. Note that this law is not observer dependent; nor is > it frame or coordinate dependent. Note also that the context here is SR (not GR). > > For instance, to get conservation of 3-momentum one must project > the conservation law for 4-momentum onto an inertial frame. I think Professor Roberts was somewhat intoxicated writing this post that yours truly is replying to. <shrug> > Nature uses no observers, so valid models of physics must not use observers, or > at least be independent of observer. Although nature care no observers, it is sentient beings like ourselves that are interested in observing the nature from our very point of view. That is why it is impossible to describe a geometry without specifying a set of coordinate system first. <shrug> Perhaps, these mysticisms in physics in the past 100 years were started by intoxicated self-styled physicists with the daunting tasks of educating the next generation of self-styled physicists who cannot think for themselves anymore. <shrug>
From: harald on 6 Aug 2010 08:08 On Aug 6, 5:12 am, glird <gl...(a)aol.com> wrote: > On Aug 4, 11:27 pm, Tom Roberts wrote: [..] > >< When you rotate a ladder to get through a narrow doorway, you do not affect the ladder itself, but the rotation has physical consequences. Similarly in SR, relative velocity is an analogous rotation that does not affect the object itself, but has physical consequences. > > > In SR, Einstein assumed that the axes of differently moving systems do NOT rotate. Right - but besides the point. Obviously, *relative* velocity cannot tell us which, if any, is physically affected by velocity. However, the claim that a ladder *is not affected* by rotation (a change of state) is already wrong, the physical effects are merely invisibly small for us; an elaboration about the *physics* shows just the contrary of its intended *geometrical* purpose. For example, rotation has in theory an extremely small effect on the radioactivity of C14 isotopes at the ladder's ends. Langevin gave a better example with the space traveler in order to illustrate that, as he put it, 'only a uniform speed relative to [the ether] cannot be detected, but any change of speed [..] has an absolute sense'. [..] > ><You did not read his paper carefully enough. He EXPLICITLY said that he was using the term "stationary system" as a LABEL, to distinguish it from other inertial systems. It is a label that can apply to ANY inertial frame (see the first paragraph of I.1 of Einstein's 1905 paper "Zur Elektrodynamik bewegter Körper"). In SR there is no need for any stationary system in YOUR sense -- you applied a PUN and read more into his word choice than is actually there. > > > True. It was, however, implicit that clocks set by his method would > be synchronous if and BECAUSE the given system (K) was physically at > rest in his empty space. No, not at all: K in that paper is an arbitrary inertial system. > I ask you again, Tom: Please discuss with me, in a non- > confrontational way, the meaning of each consecutive step and equation > in Einsteins paper. The following citation may be helpful: "We [...] assume that the clocks can be adjusted in such a way that the propagation velocity of every light ray in vacuum - measured by means of these clocks - becomes everywhere equal to a universal constant c, provided that the coordinate system is not accelerated. [..] "the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light," is at least for a coordinate system in a certain state of motion [..] made plausible by the confirmation of the Lorentz theory [1895], which is based on the assumption of an ether that is absolutely at rest, through experiment" - Einstein, 1907 [..] > Tom!! The purpose of that long harangue was to gain your attention > wrt the following questions: > 1. How do rotations and projections explain the length contractions > found by using Esynched=esynched clocks to plot the positions of the > ends of a relatively moving rod? > 2. How does Minkowski-rotations and projections explain the esynching > per se? I'll leave that for Tom. ;-) Cheers, Harald
From: Tom Roberts on 6 Aug 2010 19:21 glird wrote: > On Aug 4, 11:27 pm, Tom Roberts wrote: >> < In SR, "time dilation" and "mass variance" do not affect the object >> ITSELF, they are artifacts of measuring a moving object. > > > In SR they do. In Minkowski's mathematics (Minky-math) they don't. Not true. You attempt to make a distinction without a difference. >> < And we no longer say "mass variance", we call the quantity that varies >> "energy", not "mass". > > > Given that the equation e = mc^2 (energy equals mass times {the speed of > light in vacuo} squared) has been experimentally verified, explain how the > quantity of energy can vary if the m and c do not. You do not understand what E=mc^2 means. It means the REST ENERGY of an object is proportional to its mass. For moving objects, their mass remains fixed but their energy is increased. >> < When you rotate a ladder to get through a narrow doorway, you do not >> affect the ladder itself, but the rotation has physical consequences. >> Similarly in SR, relative velocity is an analogous rotation that does not >> affect the object itself, but has physical consequences. > > > In SR, Einstein assumed that the axes of differently moving systems do NOT > rotate. You don't understand. In SR, relative velocity is ANALOGOUS to a spatial rotation, but is not the same. It is a rotation in a space-time plane, not in a space-space plane like the ladder. >> You did not read his paper carefully enough. He EXPLICITLY said that he >> was using the term "stationary system" as a LABEL, to distinguish it from >> other inertial systems. It is a label that can apply to ANY inertial frame >> (see the first paragraph of I.1 of Einstein's 1905 paper "Zur >> Elektrodynamik bewegter Körper"). In SR there is no need for any stationary >> system in YOUR sense -- you applied a PUN and read more into his word >> choice than is actually there. > > True. It was, however, implicit that clocks set by his method would be > synchronous if and BECAUSE the given system (K) was physically at rest in his > “empty space”. That is just plain not true. Einstein never mentioned "at rest in empty space", and in SR there is no way to define it. > [... too much nonsense for me to deal with] Tom Roberts
From: glird on 6 Aug 2010 20:56
On Aug 6, 7:21 pm, Tom Roberts wrote: > glird wrote: > >>< Given that the equation e = mc^2 (energy equals mass times {the speed of light in vacuo} squared) has been experimentally verified, explain how the quantity of energy can vary if the m and c do not.> > >< You do not understand what E=mc^2 means. It means the REST ENERGY of an object is proportional to its mass. For moving objects, their mass remains fixed but their energy is increased. > You're talking about the wrong equation, Tom. The ones you refer to seem to be Longitudinal mass = m/q, Transverse mass = m/Q, in which Q = q^2 = c^2 - v^2, mass is the weight-is-a-form-of-energy of moving objects, and m is your "REST ENERGY" of a body, i.e. its energy when at rest on Earth. glird |