Mutual time slowdown means both clocks go slow
in [Relativity]
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From: BURT on 7 Aug 2010 01:07 On Aug 6, 10:04 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 7, 2:53 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:52 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Aug 7, 2:51 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:49 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:47 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:40 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:37 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:32 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:28 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:26 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:21 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:17 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 2:09 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 9:02 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:42 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:35 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 1:17 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 8:11 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 7, 10:02 am, BURT <macromi....(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us say you are a twin on a high speed train. You are passsing the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > station and its clock is out in the open. When you pass the station by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SR you are supposed to see its clock going slow. But if this were true > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > show when it has an oportunity to age more. Surely it cannot be mutual > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all of the time and what needs to be defined is when it is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise you don't have a workable theory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mitch Raemsch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So .. you still don't get it. Neither clock is running slow .. both > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are keeping perfect time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are MEASURED as slower by moving observers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So all I have to do is move and I can slow down clocks around me? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? You moving does NOTHING AT ALL to the other > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clocks. NEITHER clock is running slow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eg. if a passenger at the font of the train looks at the time on the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > station clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > passenger at the rear of the train looks at the time n the station > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clock (compared to his own clock) as he passes it, and then if they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > compare what times they saw on the station clock .. they would say > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the station clock is running SLOWER. HOWEVER, a parson standing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at the station clock, and looking at the clocks of the two passengers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as they pass, would conclude that time was running FASTER for the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > train passengers (not slower). There is no contradiction in what they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you reverse the situation (two observers at each end of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > platform and a clock in the middle of the train) you'd get the two > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observers on the platform deciding that the train clock is SLOWER, and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an observer at the train clock would see the two people on ends of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > platform's clock running FASTER. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its a difference in clock sync for the passengers relative to the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > station clock that make the rate of time appear faster or slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the passengers in front and back of the train see the station's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clock running slow then how will that station age more than them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? Both are ticking at the same correct rate .. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > neither ages more than the other. It is differences in clock sync > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that mean you would calculate other clocks as apparently ticking > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > slower or faster.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One twin ages more than the other. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Don't you read? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the twin on the train sees the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > station twin time running slow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you think he determines that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because the clock is on the outside of the station. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You didn't answer the question .. where the clock is located is NOT > > > > > > > > > > > > > how the rate is determined. So .. how about you answer the question: > > > > > > > > > > > > > How does the observer on the train determine that the station clock is > > > > > > > > > > > > > ticking slower? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then when does it happen that the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > station twin ages more? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He doesn't. Nor does he age less. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not what Einstein had to say about his twins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *YOU* and *I* are talking about 'twins' on a train and station, and > > > > > > > > > > > > > *mutual* time dilation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is very different to the 'twin paradox' where one twin moves away > > > > > > > > > > > > > from the other and the changes velocity and returns. You are nowhere > > > > > > > > > > > > > NEAR ready to talk about that until you understand mutual time > > > > > > > > > > > > > dilation and what it actually means. Don't run before you can walk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where do you get your argument against Einstein's twin paradox? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not arguing against it .. I wan't even talking about it. And > > > > > > > > > > > > > neither were you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I AM trying (in vain) to do is to educate you. Are you willing > > > > > > > > > > > > > to learn, or are you going to remain a troll? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now .. back to mutual time dilation. Both clocks tick at the correct > > > > > > > > > > > > > rate. Neither slows down. Neither speeds up.. A moving observer has > > > > > > > > > > > > > NO EFFECT on the ticking rate of a clock. In your scenario of a > > > > > > > > > > > > > passenger on a train and a station clock .. How does the passenger > > > > > > > > > > > > > determine that the station clock is ticking slower?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asuming the stations clock is outside he should have no problem seeing > > > > > > > > > > > > it and recording it as he passes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Seeing and recording a single time as as passes tell you NOTHING about > > > > > > > > > > > the ticking rate. > > > > > > > > > > > > How does the passenger determine that the station clock is ticking > > > > > > > > > > > slower? Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is allowed to have > > > > > > > > > > > other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > By comparison. > > > > > > > > > > Comparison of what with what? Still no answer to the question .. I've > > > > > > > > > asked four times now. Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is > > > > > > > > > allowed to have other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > > A watch will do. > > > > > > > > Will do what? Still no answer to the question .. I've asked five > > > > > > > times now. Tell me the process he uses. NOTE: He is allowed to have > > > > > > > other friends on the station or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > I will help you here. I watch is a clock one wears on his arm and will > > > > > > tell time. > > > > > > No help. And still no answer to the question .. I've asked six times > > > > > now. Tell me the process he uses to determine that the station clock > > > > > runs slow. NOTE: He is allowed to have other friends on the station > > > > > or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > Are you arguing that it is not possible to compare clocks? > > > > What clocks. When. Still no answer to the question .. I've asked > > > seven times > > > now. Tell me the process he uses to determine that the station clock > > > runs slow. NOTE: He is allowed to have other friends on the station > > > or the train help him.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > There can be one on the train and one hung outside the station which > > is typical. > > If you like .. though that may not be enough clocks .. won't know > until you say what happens. > But still you give no answer to the question .. I've asked eight times > now. > Tell me the process he uses to determine that the station clock runs > slow. > NOTE: He is allowed to have other friends on the station or the train > help him- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Is there going to be a Great Clock Disaster? Where we won't have clocks to compare? What is your point? Mitch Raemsch
From: Bernhard Schornak on 7 Aug 2010 02:10 Hint: If the train is really fast (574 km/h is the current record), you can't read clocks outside the train and no one outside can read a clock inside it. With that speed, a clock rushes by much faster than anyone can read it. Greetings from Augsburg Bernhard Schornak
From: BURT on 7 Aug 2010 02:15 On Aug 6, 11:10 pm, Bernhard Schornak <schor...(a)web.de> wrote: > Hint: > > If the train is really fast (574 km/h is the current > record), you can't read clocks outside the train and > no one outside can read a clock inside it. With that > speed, a clock rushes by much faster than anyone can > read it. > > Greetings from Augsburg > > Bernhard Schornak Still it could be photographed. Mitch Raemsch
From: artful on 7 Aug 2010 02:58 On Aug 7, 3:07 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Aug 6, 10:04 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: [snip lots of BURT avoiding the question] > > If you like .. though that may not be enough clocks .. won't know > > until you say what happens. > > But still you give no answer to the question .. I've asked eight times > > now. > > Tell me the process he uses to determine that the station clock runs > > slow. > > NOTE: He is allowed to have other friends on the station or the train > > help him- Hide quoted text - > > Is there going to be a Great Clock Disaster? I don't know .. you haven't said what happens with these clocks in order for the train observer to determine the ticking rate of the station clock > Where we won't have clocks to compare? I don't know .. you haven't said what happens with these clocks in order for the train observer to determine the ticking rate of the station clock > What is your point? My point is that you refuse, or are unable, to answer the very simple question I asked. Have you even TRIED thinking about it? Its really not that hard to come up with a way to determine the ticking rate of a station clocks from a moving train. But still you give no answer to the question .. I've asked nine times now. Tell me the process the train passenger uses to determine that the station clock runs slower than his. NOTE: He is allowed to have other friends on the station or the train help him
From: Bernhard Schornak on 7 Aug 2010 03:00
BURT wrote: > Bernhard Schornak wrote: >> Hint: >> >> If the train is really fast (574 km/h is the current >> record), you can't read clocks outside the train and >> no one outside can read a clock inside it. With that >> speed, a clock rushes by much faster than anyone can >> read it. >> >> Greetings from Augsburg >> >> Bernhard Schornak > > Still it could be photographed. Yes. By whom? How fast can you shoot a pic- ture and compare it against your clock? What kind of clocks are on the platform and in the train? To measure any difference, it requires very fast clocks (somewhere in the range of Gigahertz or above). Did you put the Dopplereffect into account? Might be a better idea to wait for the next station and read both clocks as long as the train does not move. Greetings from Augsburg Bernhard Schornak |