.NET micro framework ... end of embedded world???
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From: MK on 10 Dec 2009 03:24 "Andrew" <asmith(a)blackstone.biz> wrote in message news:hfoem6$7fv$1(a)aioe.org... > What is he future? ARMs are coming down in price. > Microsoft has made micro framework license free. > Creating firmware has become high level (C#), > cheap, and perhaps the next big thing? > > Will asm/C go the way of the dinosaur? > Will 8 bit micros become obsolete? > > If Microsoft have made the mocro framework free (as in beer or open source ?) I suspect that it is because they can't gain any market traction by selling it. Last time I looked it needed a lot of resource to run (RAM and ROM) - far more than I have ever embedded in a micro based project. So micro frameowrk based systems won't be replacing 8 bit micros (or 32 bit ones in many applications) any time soon. Michael Kellett
From: David Brown on 10 Dec 2009 04:12 Andrew wrote: > Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: >> >> >> Andrew wrote: >> >>> What is he future? ARMs are coming down in price. >>> Microsoft has made micro framework license free. >>> Creating firmware has become high level (C#), >>> cheap, and perhaps the next big thing? >>> >>> Will asm/C go the way of the dinosaur? >>> Will 8 bit micros become obsolete? >> >> The future is there is going to be more and more idiots like you. > > Jackass. While there was no need for Vladimir to be so rude, what kind of answer were you expecting? I have no idea where you are coming from, or if you understand what embedded development actually /is/ (judging from your email address, you work for an investment company rather than a development company), but few people in this newsgroup will see your questions as anything other than a poor joke or trolling. I'll give you some answers - mainly because it's nice to have a discussion about the future, and I'd be interested to hear opinions and comments from others in the group. MS has never made anything for /free/, as far as I know. It offers some things with zero cost price, but the strings attached make them far from "free". If nothing else, their "free" stuff pushes users towards their non-free stuff. That's not necessarily a criticism - they are a company, trying to make a living. But hearing that "Microsoft has made micro framework license free" is of any serious interest to very few people in this area. C# may be usable if you are already locked in a MS/dotnet/Windows environment - otherwise there are better choices of development languages at every level. Low-level stuff is done in C (or sometimes assembly, if necessary). Higher than that is C++, which is also fine for very large projects if managed well. People looking for something at a higher level for big systems will often pick Java. If you have such a powerful system that speed and size doesn't matter too much, you are probably working on a PC "embedded" in a box, and can use whatever tools you like that work well with the OS you are using - Python might be a good choice for fast development at the cost of slower runtime. C# is slower and less flexible than C or C++, less portable than Java, and far more work than Python. Why would anyone bother with it outside the context of MS/dotnet/Windows ? ARMs are coming down in price - that's true. There are three sorts of ARM - microcontroller ARMs (programmed in C or C++), mobile phone ARMs (programmed in C, C++ or Java), and Linux ARMs (programmed in C, C++, Java, Python, Perl, bash, tcl/tk, whatever). C# and MS do not figure on ARM. Assembly is now a minority player in embedded development, but it will never go away entirely. It is not obsolete, but it is now rare that firmware is developed entirely in assembly (except for very small systems). C is the backbone of embedded systems development, and will remain so for the foreseeable future. For all its faults, it is the best choice available - it is widespread, reasonably portable, and has a huge momentum in the industry. Nothing else has come close to the advantages of C for embedded development - even C++ is small in the embedded world in comparison to C. The market share of 32-bit microcontroller is increasing over that of the 8-bit microcontrollers, but 8-bitters are far from obsolete (4-bit microcontrollers are still mass produced). But these 32-bit micros are better seen as being like 8-bit microcontrollers with more powerful cores and development tools - they are no more related to the PC world than the 8-bitters are. As for Vladimir's comments, I guess like the rest of us he worries about Windows-trained PC programmers getting involved in embedded development. Embedded systems development is very different from writing Visual Basic or C# on Windows, but PHB's often fail to understand that, resulting in the wrong people working in the wrong jobs (or perhaps the right people, but with the wrong training).
From: Bob on 10 Dec 2009 05:32 On 9 Dec, 15:11, Andrew <asm...(a)blackstone.biz> wrote: > What is he future? ARMs are coming down in price. > Microsoft has made micro framework license free. > Creating firmware has become high level (C#), > cheap, and perhaps the next big thing? "There is no magic bullet". But marketing will always tell you they have one. In high volume applications, the unit cost is the most important factor, so the development environment may not even be relevant. ARMs have always been coming down in price, and we have been using high-level language for years, so don't expect a revolution from a language which is worse in terms of embedded performance. Opening up development to script kiddies is unlikely to benefit the industry significantly. > Will asm/C go the way of the dinosaur? > Will 8 bit micros become obsolete? Unlikely. The more likely scenario is that they will continue to dominate in particular niches, and unit cost will always be an issue. New higher power platforms tend to create new niches, where 8 bitters were never used, eg. set top boxes. You really need to understand the current market place before speculating about the future. Do some research into current embedded projects broken down by language and architecture. The results may surprise you. Many years after C++, C still dominates, and more 8- bitters are sold than ever before.
From: Andrew on 10 Dec 2009 10:34 David Brown wrote: > Andrew wrote: >> Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: >>> >>> >>> Andrew wrote: >>> >>>> What is he future? ARMs are coming down in price. >>>> Microsoft has made micro framework license free. >>>> Creating firmware has become high level (C#), >>>> cheap, and perhaps the next big thing? >>>> >>>> Will asm/C go the way of the dinosaur? >>>> Will 8 bit micros become obsolete? >>> >>> The future is there is going to be more and more idiots like you. >> >> Jackass. > > While there was no need for Vladimir to be so rude, what kind of answer > were you expecting? I have no idea where you are coming from, or if you > understand what embedded development actually /is/ (judging from your > email address, you work for an investment company rather than a > development company), but few people in this newsgroup will see your > questions as anything other than a poor joke or trolling. I'll give you > some answers - mainly because it's nice to have a discussion about the > future, and I'd be interested to hear opinions and comments from others > in the group. I'm a developer. Just lost a project that could have been done with an AVR to ARM with micro framework. > MS has never made anything for /free/, as far as I know. It offers some > things with zero cost price, but the strings attached make them far from > "free". If nothing else, their "free" stuff pushes users towards their > non-free stuff. That's not necessarily a criticism - they are a > company, trying to make a living. But hearing that "Microsoft has made > micro framework license free" is of any serious interest to very few > people in this area. > > ARMs are coming down in price - that's true. There are three sorts of > ARM - microcontroller ARMs (programmed in C or C++), mobile phone ARMs > (programmed in C, C++ or Java), and Linux ARMs (programmed in C, C++, > Java, Python, Perl, bash, tcl/tk, whatever). C# and MS do not figure on > ARM. That is what micro framework is all about. C# on an ARM7 or even a Cortex. http://www.microsoft.com/netmf/hardware/default.mspx > The market share of 32-bit microcontroller is increasing over that of > the 8-bit microcontrollers, but 8-bitters are far from obsolete (4-bit > microcontrollers are still mass produced). But these 32-bit micros are > better seen as being like 8-bit microcontrollers with more powerful > cores and development tools - they are no more related to the PC world > than the 8-bitters are. That is the topic of this thread. Are cheap 32bit micros going to displace 8bit micros? The cost difference is converging. > As for Vladimir's comments, I guess like the rest of us he worries about > Windows-trained PC programmers getting involved in embedded development. > Embedded systems development is very different from writing Visual > Basic or C# on Windows, but PHB's often fail to understand that, > resulting in the wrong people working in the wrong jobs (or perhaps the > right people, but with the wrong training). That appears to be microsoft's purpose in promoting micro framework. "The .NET Micro Framework aims to make embedded development easier, faster, and less expensive by giving embedded developers access to the modern technologies and tools used by desktop application developers. Additionally, it allows desktop .NET developers to use their skills in the embedded world, enlarging the pool of qualified embedded developers." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Micro_Framework
From: Andrew on 10 Dec 2009 10:40
Bob wrote: > On 9 Dec, 15:11, Andrew <asm...(a)blackstone.biz> wrote: >> What is he future? ARMs are coming down in price. >> Microsoft has made micro framework license free. >> Creating firmware has become high level (C#), >> cheap, and perhaps the next big thing? > > "There is no magic bullet". But marketing will always tell you they > have one. In high volume applications, the unit cost is the most > important factor, so the development environment may not even be > relevant. ARMs have always been coming down in price, and we have been > using high-level language for years, so don't expect a revolution from > a language which is worse in terms of embedded performance. Opening up > development to script kiddies is unlikely to benefit the industry > significantly. > >> Will asm/C go the way of the dinosaur? >> Will 8 bit micros become obsolete? > > Unlikely. The more likely scenario is that they will continue to > dominate in particular niches, and unit cost will always be an issue. > New higher power platforms tend to create new niches, where 8 bitters > were never used, eg. set top boxes. > > You really need to understand the current market place before > speculating about the future. Do some research into current embedded > projects broken down by language and architecture. The results may > surprise you. Many years after C++, C still dominates, and more 8- > bitters are sold than ever before. C++ flopped for embedded. EC++ never made it to mainstream. C remains the staple for small firmware projects. Its remained that way for 30 years. Seems like change is inevitable. But when and what? If the cost is the same for 8bit vs. 32bit then its logical that something else is possible in the not so distant future. The question is will it be something like C# micro framework? |