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From: FromTheRafters on 23 Feb 2010 19:36
"Leythos" <spam999free(a)rrohio.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.25ee2f7e5d592bcc98a156(a)us.news.astraweb.com...
> In article <hm1i7t$a95$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
> erratic(a)nomail.afraid.org says...
>>
>> "Leythos" <spam999free(a)rrohio.com> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.25ed8d0d938649d198a151(a)us.news.astraweb.com...
>> > In article <hlvfbk$pho$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
>> > erratic(a)nomail.afraid.org says...
>> >>
>> >> "Dave Baker" <Null(a)null.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:hltj6f$n0q$1(a)news.datemas.de...
>> >>
>> >> [...]
>> >>
>> >> > Note to self and others. Check the firewall settings haven't
>> >> > been
>> >> > tampered with BEFORE you run anti malware progs or it'll be a
>> >> > waste
>> >> > of
>> >> > time.
>> >>
>> >> If your computer is compromised by malware, and your firewall
>> >> settings
>> >> look okay, what conclusions can you draw from this?
>> >
>> > What does a firewall have to do with compromised computers?
>>
>> ...that's another way of saying it. :o)
>>
>> Answer: Nothing, but malware running on the machine can make your
>> tools
>> appear to lie to you. Affecting changes to a firewall by using tools
>> in
>> a compromised environment may not be actual changes, only lies. I'm
>> just
>> saying Dave's suggestion is only the half of it - it is futile either
>> way. The thing to do is to remove the active malware so that you can
>> trust the tools, then check your settings.
>
> Isn't that why you don't trust a firewall on the computer you actually
> use?

Indeed! The simplest of firewall appliances is better than an 'all bells
and whistles' personal firewall application running on the machine it
hopes to protect. I misspoke when I didn't qualify that the discussion
was likely about personal firewall applications and not actual
firewalls. I used to be a real stickler about there being an important
distinction there.


"Leythos" <spam999free(a)rrohio.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.25ee2f7e5d592bcc98a156(a)us.news.astraweb.com...
> In article <hm1i7t$a95$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
> erratic(a)nomail.afraid.org says...
>>
>> "Leythos" <spam999free(a)rrohio.com> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.25ed8d0d938649d198a151(a)us.news.astraweb.com...
>> > In article <hlvfbk$pho$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
>> > erratic(a)nomail.afraid.org says...
>> >>
>> >> "Dave Baker" <Null(a)null.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:hltj6f$n0q$1(a)news.datemas.de...
>> >>
>> >> [...]
>> >>
>> >> > Note to self and others. Check the firewall settings haven't
>> >> > been
>> >> > tampered with BEFORE you run anti malware progs or it'll be a
>> >> > waste
>> >> > of
>> >> > time.
>> >>
>> >> If your computer is compromised by malware, and your firewall
>> >> settings
>> >> look okay, what conclusions can you draw from this?
>> >
>> > What does a firewall have to do with compromised computers?
>>
>> ...that's another way of saying it. :o)
>>
>> Answer: Nothing, but malware running on the machine can make your
>> tools
>> appear to lie to you. Affecting changes to a firewall by using tools
>> in
>> a compromised environment may not be actual changes, only lies. I'm
>> just
>> saying Dave's suggestion is only the half of it - it is futile either
>> way. The thing to do is to remove the active malware so that you can
>> trust the tools, then check your settings.
>
> Isn't that why you don't trust a firewall on the computer you actually
> use?
>
> The general security rule is that a firewall, to be effective, is
> installed on a stand-alone machine that is not used by anyone and has
> no
> shared account authentication with your users.
>
> While many firewall products, real that as Appliances, can filter
> content (files) out of HTTP and FTP and SMTP sessions, you really have
> to understand how to do that in order to protect your network and
> systems.
>
> --
> You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
> voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to
> that.
> Trust yourself.
> spam999free(a)rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)


From: RayLopez99 on 24 Feb 2010 07:17
On Feb 24, 2:26 am, "FromTheRafters" <erra...(a)nomail.afraid.org>
wrote:

> Indeed! The simplest of firewall appliances is better than an 'all bells
> and whistles' personal firewall application running on the machine it
> hopes to protect. I mispoke when I didn't qualify that the discussion
> was likely about personal firewall applications and not actual
> firewalls. I used to be a real stickler about there being an important
> distinction there.

So your position is that only somebody as steeped in knowledge as an
IT professional (like you?) can effectively use a firewall. Those
'rules' (and my firewall Look 'n' Stop has about 20 of them) are of
little or no importance? Or perhaps they only take care of the 'easy'
cases--say 50% or less of the total?

Interesting if that's your position--and certainly that's not what the
marketers of firewalls tell casual users like myself...

RL

From: FromTheRafters on 24 Feb 2010 19:40
"RayLopez99" <raylopez88(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:05c6a3de-d813-47da-a74e-b741dd7108bf(a)c16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 24, 2:26 am, "FromTheRafters" <erra...(a)nomail.afraid.org>
wrote:

> Indeed! The simplest of firewall appliances is better than an 'all
> bells
> and whistles' personal firewall application running on the machine it
> hopes to protect. I mispoke when I didn't qualify that the discussion
> was likely about personal firewall applications and not actual
> firewalls. I used to be a real stickler about there being an important
> distinction there.

So your position is that only somebody as steeped in knowledge as an
IT professional (like you?) can effectively use a firewall.

***
I'm a hobbiest, not an IT professional. When an IT professional tells me
that a personal firewall application is a *real* firewall and a NAT
router with basic firewalling capabilities (SPI) is *not*, I know enough
to *know* he is wrong.
***

Those 'rules' (and my firewall Look 'n' Stop has about 20 of them) are
of little or no importance?

***
No, they can be helpful (or entertaining).
***

Or perhaps they only take care of the 'easy' cases--say 50% or less of
the total?

***
Don't know, but if you are talking about outbound filtering or
application control, then we are no longer talking about a firewall in
the sense that a router as described above is a firewall. Disallowing a
trojan from accessing the internet can be a good thing, but you are
correct in assuming that this would be an "easy" case.
***

Interesting if that's your position--and certainly that's not what the
marketers of firewalls tell casual users like myself...

***
Toothpaste companies always show *lots* of toothpaste on the brush - do
you think that much is *really* needed? Why would they want to teach the
users to be conservative, after all, they *are* in business to make
money.
***


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