Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
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From: colp on 7 Jul 2010 21:06 On Jul 8, 12:01 pm, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> wrote: > On 7/7/2010 5:49 PM, colp wrote: > > > > > On Jul 8, 8:05 am, stevendaryl3...(a)yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote: > >> harald says... > > >>> On Jul 7, 6:02=A0pm, stevendaryl3...(a)yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote: > > >>>> If you are asking, not about General Relativity, but the General > >>>> Principle of Relativity: that isn't a theory of physics, it is > >>>> a heuristic, or a philosophical position, or metaphysics. It has > >>>> no physical meaning, except to the extent that it guides us in > >>>> coming up with better theories of physics. > > >>> I rarely saw a more aggressive criticism against Einstein's > >>> theory. :-) > > >> The generalized principle of relativity is not a theory. > > > Right. It is an assumption, and the application of that assumption > > leads to contradictions. This is a case of doctrinal annihilation; > > i.e. a set of postulates that are collectively inconsistent. > > > The relevant postulates are: > > > 1. There is not preferred frame of reference. > > 2. Moving clocks run slow. (Paraphrased from Einsteins > > "Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies") > > > Since we know that moving clocks _do_ run slow, the only logical > > conclusion is that a preferred frame of reference exists. > > How is that a logical conclusion? It's a form of reducto ad absurdum that relies on the established fact that in some cases moving clocks run slow. Reductio ad absurdum is a mode of argumentation that seeks to establish a contention by deriving an absurdity from its denial, thus arguing that a thesis must be accepted because its rejection would be untenable. http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/ The contention that is established is that a preferred frame of reference exists. The denial of that contention is Einstien's first postulate of relativity, and the absurdity that results from it is the twin paradox in its various forms. > > > The assertion that a preferred frame of reference exists is a > > philisophical one, and points towards the epistemological schism of > > natural philosophy which led to the development of science (i.e. > > knowledge of the physical realm) and religion (i.e. beliefs about the > > theological realm) as separate disciplines. > > In other words you don't like it that science doesn't let you get away > with making up truths to suit your biases. Wrong. Nobody can make up truth for any reason.
From: artful on 7 Jul 2010 21:40 On Jul 8, 11:06 am, colp <c...(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote: > On Jul 8, 12:01 pm, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On 7/7/2010 5:49 PM, colp wrote: > > > > On Jul 8, 8:05 am, stevendaryl3...(a)yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote: > > >> harald says... > > > >>> On Jul 7, 6:02=A0pm, stevendaryl3...(a)yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote: > > > >>>> If you are asking, not about General Relativity, but the General > > >>>> Principle of Relativity: that isn't a theory of physics, it is > > >>>> a heuristic, or a philosophical position, or metaphysics. It has > > >>>> no physical meaning, except to the extent that it guides us in > > >>>> coming up with better theories of physics. > > > >>> I rarely saw a more aggressive criticism against Einstein's > > >>> theory. :-) > > > >> The generalized principle of relativity is not a theory. > > > > Right. It is an assumption, and the application of that assumption > > > leads to contradictions. This is a case of doctrinal annihilation; > > > i.e. a set of postulates that are collectively inconsistent. > > > > The relevant postulates are: > > > > 1. There is not preferred frame of reference. > > > 2. Moving clocks run slow. (Paraphrased from Einsteins > > > "Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies") > > > > Since we know that moving clocks _do_ run slow, the only logical > > > conclusion is that a preferred frame of reference exists. > > > How is that a logical conclusion? > > It's a form of reducto ad absurdum that relies on the established fact > that in some cases moving clocks run slow. > > Reductio ad absurdum is a mode of argumentation that seeks to > establish a contention by deriving an absurdity from its denial, thus > arguing that a thesis must be accepted because its rejection would be > untenable.http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/ > > The contention that is established is that a preferred frame of > reference exists. The denial of that contention is Einstien's first > postulate of relativity, and the absurdity that results from it is the > twin paradox in its various forms. > > > > > > The assertion that a preferred frame of reference exists is a > > > philisophical one, and points towards the epistemological schism of > > > natural philosophy which led to the development of science (i.e. > > > knowledge of the physical realm) and religion (i.e. beliefs about the > > > theological realm) as separate disciplines. > > > In other words you don't like it that science doesn't let you get away > > with making up truths to suit your biases. > > Wrong. Nobody can make up truth for any reason. That is why you LIE instead
From: J. Clarke on 7 Jul 2010 21:51 On 7/7/2010 9:06 PM, colp wrote: > On Jul 8, 12:01 pm, "J. Clarke"<jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> wrote: >> On 7/7/2010 5:49 PM, colp wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Jul 8, 8:05 am, stevendaryl3...(a)yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote: >>>> harald says... >> >>>>> On Jul 7, 6:02=A0pm, stevendaryl3...(a)yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote: >> >>>>>> If you are asking, not about General Relativity, but the General >>>>>> Principle of Relativity: that isn't a theory of physics, it is >>>>>> a heuristic, or a philosophical position, or metaphysics. It has >>>>>> no physical meaning, except to the extent that it guides us in >>>>>> coming up with better theories of physics. >> >>>>> I rarely saw a more aggressive criticism against Einstein's >>>>> theory. :-) >> >>>> The generalized principle of relativity is not a theory. >> >>> Right. It is an assumption, and the application of that assumption >>> leads to contradictions. This is a case of doctrinal annihilation; >>> i.e. a set of postulates that are collectively inconsistent. >> >>> The relevant postulates are: >> >>> 1. There is not preferred frame of reference. >>> 2. Moving clocks run slow. (Paraphrased from Einsteins >>> "Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies") >> >>> Since we know that moving clocks _do_ run slow, the only logical >>> conclusion is that a preferred frame of reference exists. >> >> How is that a logical conclusion? > > It's a form of reducto ad absurdum that relies on the established fact > that in some cases moving clocks run slow. Instead of "reducto ad absurdum" you might want to familiarize yourself with something called "mathematics". > > Reductio ad absurdum is a mode of argumentation that seeks to > establish a contention by deriving an absurdity from its denial, thus > arguing that a thesis must be accepted because its rejection would be > untenable. > http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/ > > The contention that is established is that a preferred frame of > reference exists. The denial of that contention is Einstien's first > postulate of relativity, and the absurdity that results from it is the > twin paradox in its various forms. And if that "absurdity" is in fact real then what? >>> The assertion that a preferred frame of reference exists is a >>> philisophical one, and points towards the epistemological schism of >>> natural philosophy which led to the development of science (i.e. >>> knowledge of the physical realm) and religion (i.e. beliefs about the >>> theological realm) as separate disciplines. >> >> In other words you don't like it that science doesn't let you get away >> with making up truths to suit your biases. > > Wrong. Nobody can make up truth for any reason. And yet you are trying to.
From: colp on 7 Jul 2010 23:09 On Jul 8, 1:51 pm, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> wrote: > On 7/7/2010 9:06 PM, colp wrote: > > > > > On Jul 8, 12:01 pm, "J. Clarke"<jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> wrote: > >> On 7/7/2010 5:49 PM, colp wrote: > > >>> On Jul 8, 8:05 am, stevendaryl3...(a)yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote: > >>>> harald says... > > >>>>> On Jul 7, 6:02=A0pm, stevendaryl3...(a)yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote: > > >>>>>> If you are asking, not about General Relativity, but the General > >>>>>> Principle of Relativity: that isn't a theory of physics, it is > >>>>>> a heuristic, or a philosophical position, or metaphysics. It has > >>>>>> no physical meaning, except to the extent that it guides us in > >>>>>> coming up with better theories of physics. > > >>>>> I rarely saw a more aggressive criticism against Einstein's > >>>>> theory. :-) > > >>>> The generalized principle of relativity is not a theory. > > >>> Right. It is an assumption, and the application of that assumption > >>> leads to contradictions. This is a case of doctrinal annihilation; > >>> i.e. a set of postulates that are collectively inconsistent. > > >>> The relevant postulates are: > > >>> 1. There is not preferred frame of reference. > >>> 2. Moving clocks run slow. (Paraphrased from Einsteins > >>> "Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies") > > >>> Since we know that moving clocks _do_ run slow, the only logical > >>> conclusion is that a preferred frame of reference exists. > > >> How is that a logical conclusion? > > > It's a form of reducto ad absurdum that relies on the established fact > > that in some cases moving clocks run slow. > > Instead of "reducto ad absurdum" you might want to familiarize yourself > with something called "mathematics". Do you have a point to make? > > > > > Reductio ad absurdum is a mode of argumentation that seeks to > > establish a contention by deriving an absurdity from its denial, thus > > arguing that a thesis must be accepted because its rejection would be > > untenable. > >http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/ > > > The contention that is established is that a preferred frame of > > reference exists. The denial of that contention is Einstien's first > > postulate of relativity, and the absurdity that results from it is the > > twin paradox in its various forms. > > And if that "absurdity" is in fact real then what? Paradoxes do not exist in nature, hence the absurdity is not real. > > >>> The assertion that a preferred frame of reference exists is a > >>> philisophical one, and points towards the epistemological schism of > >>> natural philosophy which led to the development of science (i.e. > >>> knowledge of the physical realm) and religion (i.e. beliefs about the > >>> theological realm) as separate disciplines. > > >> In other words you don't like it that science doesn't let you get away > >> with making up truths to suit your biases. > > > Wrong. Nobody can make up truth for any reason. > > And yet you are trying to. No, I am not trying to.
From: Tom Roberts on 8 Jul 2010 01:52
Daryl McCullough wrote: > Tom Roberts says... >> [abpoout Cartesian coordinate systems on a Euclidean plane] >> But they don't form a group, they form a set or a class. >> "Group" is a technical word with a different meaning than >> you intended. The transforms between pairs of such coordinates >> form a group. > > I was not meaning "group" in the technical sense, I was just meaning it in the > sense of a collection. But actually, don't they form a group? The various > Cartesian coordinate systems are related by operations such as (1) translations, > (2) rotations, (3) scale transformations. Couldn't they form a group? Groups in physics generally represent operations, not "things". In math they are considerably more general. A group consists of a set of elements and a binary composition operation; one of the elements is the identity element, and together with composition it defines an inverse of each element. Moreover, the composition is closed -- for all elements A and B of a group with composition '*', A*B is also an element of the group. For A, B, and C representing elements of the group, with E being the identify element, these are written: A = E*A = A*E (identity) C = A*B (closure) A*(B*C) = (A*B)*C (associativity) E = A*A^-1 = A^-1*A (inverse) Now apply this to what you asked: A Cartesian coordinate system is not a translation, rotation, or scale transform. So the combination of those cannot be a group. The set of all translations does form a group. The set of all rotations does form a group. The set of all translations and rotations does form a group. But there's no sense in which the coordinate systems themselves form a group -- what would "composition" of two coordinate systems mean? But here's a case rather close to that: A coordinate system can be considered a continuous map from the manifold to a region of R^N. If the original manifold is R^N itself and each map has a common region as both domain and range, then these maps form a group (the diffeomorphism group on this region of R^N). This is a property of maps with a common domain and range, not coordinate systems on a general manifold. Note that the domain and range must be equal and common to all maps, so they can be freely composed with each other -- the group composition operation is clearly successive application of the maps, the identity map takes each point to itself, etc. (I've ignored issues of differentiability...) Note that maps can be quite general, much more so than discussed here.... Ditto for groups.... Tom Roberts |