Prelim DSP design estimate
in [DSP]
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From: Eric Jacobsen on 26 Jan 2010 10:32 On 1/25/2010 11:20 PM, Tim Wescott wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:14:32 -0800, eternal_nan wrote: > (top posting fixed) >> On Jan 24, 5:57 pm, Tim Wescott<t...(a)seemywebsite.com> wrote: >>> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:59:03 -0600, Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: >>>> Tim Wescott wrote: >>>>> Note that both of these books only cover analog phase lock loop >>>>> techniques -- you'll have to extend that to an all-digital loop, >>>>> although that's not too big of a stretch if you understand digital >>>>> control system design. >>>> You should be careful with digital PLLs. The phase detector is >>>> nonlinear >>>> thing, and it makes DPLL different from a common digital control >>>> system; especially when DPLL is in acquisition mode. Besides the >>>> obvious effects of quantization and aliasing, there are also not so >>>> obvious things like false locks or limit cycle behavior so the >>>> correct lock could never be acquired. >>> OTOH, depending on the signal you're trying to lock to there are some >>> more or less clever things you can do with the phase detector to >>> improve acquisition. Mind your P's and Q's as you point out, and you >>> may find that the result is far better than what you could easily do >>> with an analog circuit. >>> >> Hi guys, >> >> I would be very interested in getting some details regarding the "clever >> things" mentioned below. Could you provide any pointers for reading >> material, books, papers, whatever. By the way, I own a copy of Tim's >> book - unfortunately there were no PLL examples in there. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Ljubisa >> > > I need to write a DPLL primer; I haven't in part because there are so > many different applications, I haven't had time to categorize them and > sort them -- and that's not even addressing alternative synchronization > methods that make PLL's unnecessary. > > If you understand the control theory part, getting a book or two on > analog PLL design is a huge help -- all the elements are there in both > digital and analog loops, so an analog PLL book is a great help. > > Floyd Gardener's book comes well recommended. I like Dan Wolaver's book > "Phase Locked Loop Circuit Design", but I haven't gotten Gardener's book > to compare with it. A decent treatment of converting the analog PLL principals to digital that's public would be very worthwhile. I know of only one, done decades ago, that used a step-invariant z-transform method and got most of the way there, and didn't address management of dimensional units in the gain terms. I built on that for a full step-invariant treatment, that was proprietary and never published, about fifteen years ago and later a colleague massaged it to cover impulse-invariant z-transform methodology. Feel free to contact me offline if you want any help. -- Eric Jacobsen Minister of Algorithms Abineau Communications http://www.abineau.com
From: Al Clark on 26 Jan 2010 14:45 >> >> I need to write a DPLL primer; I haven't in part because there are so >> many different applications, I haven't had time to categorize them and >> sort them -- and that's not even addressing alternative synchronization >> methods that make PLL's unnecessary. >> >> If you understand the control theory part, getting a book or two on >> analog PLL design is a huge help -- all the elements are there in both >> digital and analog loops, so an analog PLL book is a great help. >> >> Floyd Gardener's book comes well recommended. I like Dan Wolaver's book >> "Phase Locked Loop Circuit Design", but I haven't gotten Gardener's book >> to compare with it. > > A decent treatment of converting the analog PLL principals to digital > that's public would be very worthwhile. I know of only one, done > decades ago, that used a step-invariant z-transform method and got most > of the way there, and didn't address management of dimensional units in > the gain terms. I built on that for a full step-invariant treatment, > that was proprietary and never published, about fifteen years ago and > later a colleague massaged it to cover impulse-invariant z-transform > methodology. > > Feel free to contact me offline if you want any help. > Tim & Eric, Maybe this would be a good paper for the comp.dsp conference Al
From: Tim Wescott on 26 Jan 2010 15:18 On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:45:59 +0000, Al Clark wrote: >>> I need to write a DPLL primer; I haven't in part because there are so >>> many different applications, I haven't had time to categorize them and >>> sort them -- and that's not even addressing alternative >>> synchronization methods that make PLL's unnecessary. >>> >>> If you understand the control theory part, getting a book or two on >>> analog PLL design is a huge help -- all the elements are there in both >>> digital and analog loops, so an analog PLL book is a great help. >>> >>> Floyd Gardener's book comes well recommended. I like Dan Wolaver's >>> book "Phase Locked Loop Circuit Design", but I haven't gotten >>> Gardener's book to compare with it. >> >> A decent treatment of converting the analog PLL principals to digital >> that's public would be very worthwhile. I know of only one, done >> decades ago, that used a step-invariant z-transform method and got most >> of the way there, and didn't address management of dimensional units in >> the gain terms. I built on that for a full step-invariant treatment, >> that was proprietary and never published, about fifteen years ago and >> later a colleague massaged it to cover impulse-invariant z-transform >> methodology. >> >> Feel free to contact me offline if you want any help. >> >> > Tim & Eric, > > Maybe this would be a good paper for the comp.dsp conference > > Al I won't be able to come, alas. So unless we figure out how to present in absentia, I must bow out. -- www.wescottdesign.com
From: Eric Jacobsen on 26 Jan 2010 15:20 On 1/26/2010 1:18 PM, Tim Wescott wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:45:59 +0000, Al Clark wrote: > > >>>> I need to write a DPLL primer; I haven't in part because there are so >>>> many different applications, I haven't had time to categorize them and >>>> sort them -- and that's not even addressing alternative >>>> synchronization methods that make PLL's unnecessary. >>>> >>>> If you understand the control theory part, getting a book or two on >>>> analog PLL design is a huge help -- all the elements are there in both >>>> digital and analog loops, so an analog PLL book is a great help. >>>> >>>> Floyd Gardener's book comes well recommended. I like Dan Wolaver's >>>> book "Phase Locked Loop Circuit Design", but I haven't gotten >>>> Gardener's book to compare with it. >>> A decent treatment of converting the analog PLL principals to digital >>> that's public would be very worthwhile. I know of only one, done >>> decades ago, that used a step-invariant z-transform method and got most >>> of the way there, and didn't address management of dimensional units in >>> the gain terms. I built on that for a full step-invariant treatment, >>> that was proprietary and never published, about fifteen years ago and >>> later a colleague massaged it to cover impulse-invariant z-transform >>> methodology. >>> >>> Feel free to contact me offline if you want any help. >>> >>> >> Tim& Eric, >> >> Maybe this would be a good paper for the comp.dsp conference >> >> Al > > I won't be able to come, alas. So unless we figure out how to present in > absentia, I must bow out. > I'm still hoping to go, if that helps. -- Eric Jacobsen Minister of Algorithms Abineau Communications http://www.abineau.com
From: eternal_nan on 30 Jan 2010 00:00
Thanks everyone. Ljubisa On Jan 26, 3:20 pm, Eric Jacobsen <eric.jacob...(a)ieee.org> wrote: > On 1/26/2010 1:18 PM, Tim Wescott wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:45:59 +0000, Al Clark wrote: > > >>>> I need to write a DPLL primer; I haven't in part because there are so > >>>> many different applications, I haven't had time to categorize them and > >>>> sort them -- and that's not even addressing alternative > >>>> synchronization methods that make PLL's unnecessary. > > >>>> If you understand the control theory part, getting a book or two on > >>>> analog PLL design is a huge help -- all the elements are there in both > >>>> digital and analog loops, so an analog PLL book is a great help. > > >>>> Floyd Gardener's book comes well recommended. I like Dan Wolaver's > >>>> book "Phase Locked Loop Circuit Design", but I haven't gotten > >>>> Gardener's book to compare with it. > >>> A decent treatment of converting the analog PLL principals to digital > >>> that's public would be very worthwhile. I know of only one, done > >>> decades ago, that used a step-invariant z-transform method and got most > >>> of the way there, and didn't address management of dimensional units in > >>> the gain terms. I built on that for a full step-invariant treatment, > >>> that was proprietary and never published, about fifteen years ago and > >>> later a colleague massaged it to cover impulse-invariant z-transform > >>> methodology. > > >>> Feel free to contact me offline if you want any help. > > >> Tim& Eric, > > >> Maybe this would be a good paper for the comp.dsp conference > > >> Al > > > I won't be able to come, alas. So unless we figure out how to present in > > absentia, I must bow out. > > I'm still hoping to go, if that helps. > > -- > Eric Jacobsen > Minister of Algorithms > Abineau Communicationshttp://www.abineau.com |