Preserving/Airtightening Foods with Argon?
in [Physics]
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From: Dirk Bruere at NeoPax on 26 Feb 2010 09:46 On 26/02/2010 06:46, 2.7182818284590... wrote: > Preserving/Airtightening Foods with Argon? > > > > Argon is denser than air, and it sinks. > > Suppose that argon, which is an extremely inert noble gas, is used to > displace air (which is ~80% nitrogen, ~19% oxygen, and ~1% CO2 and > other gases) in: > 1. already opened wine bottles > 2. any food corruptible by microbes which thrive in oxygen and/or > CO2, etc. > 3. milk? > > > Could this method be used to preserve foods and/or drinks? > > I have this idea of a method which displaces the air in a wine bottle > with argon gas. The argon gas does *NOT* escape the wine bottle, but > it has displaced the air. Then a cork is placed on the half-full > bottle of wine (the other half of the wine bottle is argon gas). > > Couldn't this method be used to preserve wines? What is the big flaw > in this idea? One big flaw is that if you let anaerobic bacteria in after sterilization being in argon won't bother them. Google "botulism", for example -- Dirk http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show
From: dlzc on 26 Feb 2010 10:09 Dear Dirk Bruere at NeoPax: On Feb 26, 7:46 am, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 26/02/2010 06:46, 2.7182818284590... wrote: > > Preserving/Airtightening Foods with Argon? > > > Argon is denser than air, and it sinks. > > > Suppose that argon, which is an extremely inert > > noble gas, is used to displace air (which is ~80% > > nitrogen, ~19% oxygen, and ~1% CO2 and > > other gases) in: > > 1. already opened wine bottles > > 2. any food corruptible by microbes which thrive > > in oxygen and/or CO2, etc. > > 3. milk? > > > Could this method be used to preserve foods > > and/or drinks? > > > I have this idea of a method which displaces the > > air in a wine bottle with argon gas. The argon gas > > does *NOT* escape the wine bottle, but it has > > displaced the air. Then a cork is placed on the > > half-full bottle of wine (the other half of the wine > > bottle is argon gas). > > > Couldn't this method be used to preserve wines? > > What is the big flaw in this idea? > > One big flaw is that if you let anaerobic bacteria in > after sterilization being in argon won't bother them. > Google "botulism", for example That's the right answer. There are even organisms that change how they eat, based on how much oxygen is present. And I think if you want to store greens, you want to store them in oxygen... For the price of a gas supply, how many bottles of wine will you save? If you crack a Dom Perignon, just plan on enjoying each drop. David A. Smith
From: Salmon Egg on 26 Feb 2010 10:56 In article <869fcbf2-ef66-4d0d-bdb6-ba37758b8527(a)v20g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, "2.7182818284590..." <tangent1.57(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Preserving/Airtightening Foods with Argon? > > > > Argon is denser than air, and it sinks. > > Suppose that argon, which is an extremely inert noble gas, is used to > displace air (which is ~80% nitrogen, ~19% oxygen, and ~1% CO2 and > other gases) in: > 1. already opened wine bottles > 2. any food corruptible by microbes which thrive in oxygen and/or > CO2, etc. > 3. milk? > > > Could this method be used to preserve foods and/or drinks? > > I have this idea of a method which displaces the air in a wine bottle > with argon gas. The argon gas does *NOT* escape the wine bottle, but > it has displaced the air. Then a cork is placed on the half-full > bottle of wine (the other half of the wine bottle is argon gas). > > Couldn't this method be used to preserve wines? What is the big flaw > in this idea? Aside from the other valid responses to this post, you cannot rely on gravity alone to keep argon in and air out. You still must have a seal or impediment to normal diffusion. The thermal velocity of argon molecules (actually atoms) is high enough to escape from the container against the force of gravity. If you use a seal anyway, you might as well use a cheaper gas such as nitrogen. Other posters mentioned problems with anaerobic organisms. You would have a similar problem if you used nitrogen to displace air. The key is sterilization. Pasteur showed that exposure to air was not the problem. He fabricated flasks that allowed direct diffusive exposure to air, Particles in the air were trapped before they could reach the broth nutrient. This showed that it was not the oxygen in the air that was the problem. It was the microorganisms carried by air that did the dirty work. Bill -- An old man would be better off never having been born.
From: 2.7182818284590... on 26 Feb 2010 11:05 On Feb 26, 4:04 am, "Cwatters" <colin.wattersNOS...(a)TurnersOakNOSPAM.plus.com> wrote: > "2.7182818284590..." <tangent1...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:869fcbf2-ef66-4d0d-bdb6-ba37758b8527(a)v20g2000yqv.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > Preserving/Airtightening Foods with Argon? > > > Argon is denser than air, and it sinks. > > > Suppose that argon, which is an extremely inert noble gas, is used to > > displace air (which is ~80% nitrogen, ~19% oxygen, and ~1% CO2 and > > other gases) in: > > 1. already opened wine bottles > > 2. any food corruptible by microbes which thrive in oxygen and/or > > CO2, etc. > > 3. milk? > > > Could this method be used to preserve foods and/or drinks? > > A lot of packaged food comes packaged in a "protective atmosphere". Nitrogen > is typically used as it's cheaper than other gasses.. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_atmosphere- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - However, nitrogen will not neccessarily sink. It's probably the exact density as atmospheric air. I don't want the gas to escape my bottle or food container.
From: 2.7182818284590... on 26 Feb 2010 11:06
On Feb 26, 10:56 am, Salmon Egg <Salmon...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote: > In article > <869fcbf2-ef66-4d0d-bdb6-ba37758b8...(a)v20g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > "2.7182818284590..." <tangent1...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Preserving/Airtightening Foods with Argon? > > > Argon is denser than air, and it sinks. > > > Suppose that argon, which is an extremely inert noble gas, is used to > > displace air (which is ~80% nitrogen, ~19% oxygen, and ~1% CO2 and > > other gases) in: > > 1. already opened wine bottles > > 2. any food corruptible by microbes which thrive in oxygen and/or > > CO2, etc. > > 3. milk? > > > Could this method be used to preserve foods and/or drinks? > > > I have this idea of a method which displaces the air in a wine bottle > > with argon gas. The argon gas does *NOT* escape the wine bottle, but > > it has displaced the air. Then a cork is placed on the half-full > > bottle of wine (the other half of the wine bottle is argon gas). > > > Couldn't this method be used to preserve wines? What is the big flaw > > in this idea? > > Aside from the other valid responses to this post, you cannot rely on > gravity alone to keep argon in and air out. You still must have a seal > or impediment to normal diffusion. The thermal velocity of argon > molecules (actually atoms) is high enough to escape from the container > against the force of gravity. If you use a seal anyway, you might as > well use a cheaper gas such as nitrogen. > > Other posters mentioned problems with anaerobic organisms. You would > have a similar problem if you used nitrogen to displace air. > > The key is sterilization. Pasteur showed that exposure to air was not > the problem. He fabricated flasks that allowed direct diffusive exposure > to air, Particles in the air were trapped before they could reach the > broth nutrient. This showed that it was not the oxygen in the air that > was the problem. It was the microorganisms carried by air that did the > dirty work. > > Bill > > -- > An old man would be better off never having been born.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - But the Nitrogen would not sink. Also, couldn't nitrogen react or dissolve in the water? Not sure, but I would think that argon is more inert. I agree with you - N is cheap compared to Ar. |