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From: RnR on 14 Apr 2010 11:12
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:49:39 -0400, Daddy <daddy(a)invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Ben Myers wrote:
>> On 4/13/2010 6:37 PM, Daddy wrote:
>>> Daddy wrote:
>>>> I had to give myself a basic education on alternating current, output
>>>> waveforms and active PFC power supplies just to be able to ask this
>>>> question.
>>>>
>>>> It all started because I heard that new Dell PCs need a new kind of
>>>> UPS (uninterruptible power supply.)
>>>>
>>>> It's a fact: To comply with regulations, Dell now includes something
>>>> called an active-PFC power supply with their PCs. I also understand
>>>> that users and power companies benefit from PFC, as does the
>>>> environment.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is, active PFC power supplies supposedly need current with
>>>> a pure sine wave output - and a Dell technical rep told me that all
>>>> new Dell computers need this - but virtually all UPSes for home use
>>>> have a stepped approximation of a sine wave.
>>>>
>>>> Has anybody priced a UPS with pure sine wave output? Those buggers are
>>>> expensive!
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, according to APC: Starting in mid-2008, all APC
>>>> Back-UPS (home and small office) products were revised to better
>>>> handle load requirements for PFC devices...allowing the majority of
>>>> Back-UPS being manufactured now to handle most (not all) PFC loads
>>>> within their wattage range much better than older units. Their output
>>>> is still step-approximated, however, and APC still finds the
>>>> occasional PFC device that they have trouble with.
>>>>
>>>> Here's where I throw up my hands. Do I really need to pay an
>>>> arm-and-a-leg for a pure sine UPS, or is most any properly sized UPS
>>>> 'good enough'?
>>>>
>>>> Daddy
>>>
>>> I know you're all sitting on pins and needles over this...
>>>
>>> You may recall that I 'tested' my UPS to see if it could power my
>>> system, and the result of the test was that my system completely lost
>>> power. I have now discovered the reason why my system lost power: I am a
>>> shlemiel.
>>>
>>> (That's a 'dolt' for those unfamiliar with the lingo.)
>>>
>>> I performed the test by pressing the Off button on my UPS...which
>>> powered off the UPS. Duh! The correct thing to do was to pull the plug
>>> (of the UPS) out of the wall socket.
>>>
>>> Tonight I pulled the plug...and my system kept on working, without
>>> interruption. So there. No fancy, expensive, sine wave UPS for me.
>>>
>>> My UPS *is* somewhat under-powered for my system, by almost any
>>> calculation. I'll just wait for a good sale.
>>>
>>> Daddy
>>
>> FWIW, Staples had a good solid decently rated APC UPS on sale a few
>> weeks ago, and my son bought one to overcome the old and substandard
>> electrical wiring where he lives. CDW had APCs on sale a few weeks ago,
>> and I bought an APC Back-UPS 1250 for a little over 100 bucks. Made my
>> life easier, because our local National Grid electric company has very
>> frequent electrical hiccups, and my old UPS was worn out. I no longer
>> suffer from spontaneous reboots. Of my computer. My brain still
>> reboots regularly.
>>
>> Keep checking the sales, schlep on over to a sale, and buy a
>> good-quality name brand UPS.
>>
>> How on earth a company like Dell can tell everyone that a UPS must
>> provide A/C with a pure sine wave is beyond me. Or, to put it more
>> succinctly, it is a large load of bullshit... Ben Myers
>
>I'm not wild about UPSes by APC, because every APC unit I've ever owned
>- 4 in all - eventually starts to 'buzz' intermittently. Then I have to
>go underneath my desk and smack the thing once or twice to get the
>buzzing to stop.
>
>When I asked APC about this, they said "Oh, that's normal." I guess that
>makes my Tripp-Lite APC abnormal.
>
>Tom: A shlemiel spills coffee on a shlimazel. That's the difference.
>
>Daddy


Thanks Daddy for clearing up whether the newer Dells need this type
UPS. I don't know a lot about UPSs so this subject kept my interest.
I guess I know a little more about them now thanks to you and others.

Appreciate the info. .
From: Daddy on 14 Apr 2010 12:26
RnR wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:49:39 -0400, Daddy <daddy(a)invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Ben Myers wrote:
>>> On 4/13/2010 6:37 PM, Daddy wrote:
>>>> Daddy wrote:
>>>>> I had to give myself a basic education on alternating current, output
>>>>> waveforms and active PFC power supplies just to be able to ask this
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>> It all started because I heard that new Dell PCs need a new kind of
>>>>> UPS (uninterruptible power supply.)
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a fact: To comply with regulations, Dell now includes something
>>>>> called an active-PFC power supply with their PCs. I also understand
>>>>> that users and power companies benefit from PFC, as does the
>>>>> environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is, active PFC power supplies supposedly need current with
>>>>> a pure sine wave output - and a Dell technical rep told me that all
>>>>> new Dell computers need this - but virtually all UPSes for home use
>>>>> have a stepped approximation of a sine wave.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anybody priced a UPS with pure sine wave output? Those buggers are
>>>>> expensive!
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, according to APC: Starting in mid-2008, all APC
>>>>> Back-UPS (home and small office) products were revised to better
>>>>> handle load requirements for PFC devices...allowing the majority of
>>>>> Back-UPS being manufactured now to handle most (not all) PFC loads
>>>>> within their wattage range much better than older units. Their output
>>>>> is still step-approximated, however, and APC still finds the
>>>>> occasional PFC device that they have trouble with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's where I throw up my hands. Do I really need to pay an
>>>>> arm-and-a-leg for a pure sine UPS, or is most any properly sized UPS
>>>>> 'good enough'?
>>>>>
>>>>> Daddy
>>>> I know you're all sitting on pins and needles over this...
>>>>
>>>> You may recall that I 'tested' my UPS to see if it could power my
>>>> system, and the result of the test was that my system completely lost
>>>> power. I have now discovered the reason why my system lost power: I am a
>>>> shlemiel.
>>>>
>>>> (That's a 'dolt' for those unfamiliar with the lingo.)
>>>>
>>>> I performed the test by pressing the Off button on my UPS...which
>>>> powered off the UPS. Duh! The correct thing to do was to pull the plug
>>>> (of the UPS) out of the wall socket.
>>>>
>>>> Tonight I pulled the plug...and my system kept on working, without
>>>> interruption. So there. No fancy, expensive, sine wave UPS for me.
>>>>
>>>> My UPS *is* somewhat under-powered for my system, by almost any
>>>> calculation. I'll just wait for a good sale.
>>>>
>>>> Daddy
>>> FWIW, Staples had a good solid decently rated APC UPS on sale a few
>>> weeks ago, and my son bought one to overcome the old and substandard
>>> electrical wiring where he lives. CDW had APCs on sale a few weeks ago,
>>> and I bought an APC Back-UPS 1250 for a little over 100 bucks. Made my
>>> life easier, because our local National Grid electric company has very
>>> frequent electrical hiccups, and my old UPS was worn out. I no longer
>>> suffer from spontaneous reboots. Of my computer. My brain still
>>> reboots regularly.
>>>
>>> Keep checking the sales, schlep on over to a sale, and buy a
>>> good-quality name brand UPS.
>>>
>>> How on earth a company like Dell can tell everyone that a UPS must
>>> provide A/C with a pure sine wave is beyond me. Or, to put it more
>>> succinctly, it is a large load of bullshit... Ben Myers
>> I'm not wild about UPSes by APC, because every APC unit I've ever owned
>> - 4 in all - eventually starts to 'buzz' intermittently. Then I have to
>> go underneath my desk and smack the thing once or twice to get the
>> buzzing to stop.
>>
>> When I asked APC about this, they said "Oh, that's normal." I guess that
>> makes my Tripp-Lite APC abnormal.
>>
>> Tom: A shlemiel spills coffee on a shlimazel. That's the difference.
>>
>> Daddy
>
>
> Thanks Daddy for clearing up whether the newer Dells need this type
> UPS. I don't know a lot about UPSs so this subject kept my interest.
> I guess I know a little more about them now thanks to you and others.
>
> Appreciate the info. .

In the interests of fairness and accuracy: Dell technical support will
recommend that you buy a true sine wave UPS if you own a Studio XPS 8100
or 9000 (and probably other models as well) if you ask them for a
recommendation. However:

1- Dell technical support reps don't always know what they're talking
about; and

2- The truth is.../any/ AC-powered electrical device prefers current
with a sine waveform, but not all /require/ it. Certainly, critical
electrical equipment, such as used in hospitals, should be protected
with the more expensive sine wave UPS. Whether or not a PC with a power
factor correcting power supply /needs/ a sine wave UPS is a question
with too many variables. You have to try on your own and find out.

The issue of expensive sine wave UPSes for PCs is a lot like the
expensive supplements you hear about on radio informercials. Is there
some evidence to back them up...yes...do you need to have them...no.

Daddy
From: JayB on 15 Apr 2010 00:02
LOL
you are joking? right?
that so called buzzing is the self-test mode testing the battery and
only lasts a short time. i guess about the time it takes for you to go
below your desk and smack it.


Daddy wrote:
> I'm not wild about UPSes by APC, because every APC unit I've ever owned
> - 4 in all - eventually starts to 'buzz' intermittently. Then I have to
> go underneath my desk and smack the thing once or twice to get the
> buzzing to stop.
>
> When I asked APC about this, they said "Oh, that's normal." I guess that
> makes my Tripp-Lite APC abnormal.
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