Quasi-True Random
in [Cryptography]
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From: Phoenix on 11 Jan 2010 10:52 On 11 Jan, 15:07, Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelber...(a)nowhere.net> wrote: > On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:04:29 -0800, Phoenix wrote: > > Can we consider this a kind of quasi-true random? > > Quasi-true random is defined - how? Good question. I do not know to. I introduced it because I have no better expression to call it. But, a possible definition to that, may be a random number generated with a deterministic algorithm and a source of entropy such a clock starting in action at different times relatively between them. My question is, if the the seeds generated by the clock are not the same on the two machines (and not deterministic), are the numbers generated non deterministic? If yes, then the numbers are quasi-true- random.
From: Jens Stuckelberger on 11 Jan 2010 11:39 On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:52:23 -0800, Phoenix wrote: > On 11 Jan, 15:07, Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelber...(a)nowhere.net> > wrote: >> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:04:29 -0800, Phoenix wrote: >> > Can we consider this a kind of quasi-true random? >> >> Quasi-true random is defined - how? > > Good question. > > I do not know to. Well, in that case define it so what you are proposing IS quasi- random by definition. Less facetiously, if you don't have a solid definition of quasi- random means, anything goes.
From: Phoenix on 11 Jan 2010 14:15 On 11 Jan, 15:39, Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelber...(a)nowhere.net> wrote: > On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:52:23 -0800, Phoenix wrote: > > On 11 Jan, 15:07, Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelber...(a)nowhere.net> > > wrote: > >> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:04:29 -0800, Phoenix wrote: > >> > Can we consider this a kind of quasi-true random? > > >> Quasi-true random is defined - how? > > > Good question. > > > I do not kno > > Well, in that case define it so what you are proposing IS quasi- > random by definition. > > Less facetiously, if you don't have a solid definition of quasi- > random means, anything goes. Jens I mean to *Quasi-True Random*, not to Quasi-Random. On the example I assume the algorithm generate *good* pseudo random numbers. And my question is: If a PRNG combined with a given entropy from a non deterministic source, the numbers generated are Pseudo, True, or Quasi- True random?
From: Jens Stuckelberger on 11 Jan 2010 15:47 On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:15:36 -0800, Phoenix wrote: > On 11 Jan, 15:39, Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelber...(a)nowhere.net> > wrote: >> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:52:23 -0800, Phoenix wrote: >> > On 11 Jan, 15:07, Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelber...(a)nowhere.net> >> > wrote: >> >> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:04:29 -0800, Phoenix wrote: >> >> > Can we consider this a kind of quasi-true random? >> >> >> Quasi-true random is defined - how? >> >> > Good question. >> >> > I do not kno >> >> Well, in that case define it so what you are proposing IS >> quasi- >> random by definition. >> >> Less facetiously, if you don't have a solid definition of >> quasi- >> random means, anything goes. > > Jens > > I mean to *Quasi-True Random*, not to Quasi-Random. That does not change anything, because we still don't have a precise definition of quasi-true random. > On the example I assume the algorithm generate *good* pseudo random > numbers. > And my question is: If a PRNG combined with a given entropy from a non > deterministic source, the numbers generated are Pseudo, True, or Quasi- > True random? Pseudo. They are most certainly not true random numbers, for they are generated algorithmically. However, you could define a sequence of numbers to be quasi-true random when generated with PRNG combined with a given entropy from a non deterministic source, and see if the world at large accepts this definition.
From: unruh on 11 Jan 2010 19:31 On 2010-01-11, Phoenix <ribeiroalvo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 11 Jan, 15:39, Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelber...(a)nowhere.net> > wrote: >> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:52:23 -0800, Phoenix wrote: >> > On 11 Jan, 15:07, Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelber...(a)nowhere.net> >> > wrote: >> >> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:04:29 -0800, Phoenix wrote: >> >> > Can we consider this a kind of quasi-true random? >> >> >> ? ? ? ? Quasi-true random is defined - how? >> >> > Good question. >> >> > I do not kno >> >> ? ? ? ? Well, in that case define it so what you are proposing IS quasi- >> random by definition. >> >> ? ? ? ? Less facetiously, if you don't have a solid definition of quasi- >> random means, anything goes. > > Jens > > I mean to *Quasi-True Random*, not to Quasi-Random. That is far worse. "approximately red blue". What is "Quasi-true. Is that the same as false? > > On the example I assume the algorithm generate *good* pseudo random > numbers. Good meas what? I might regard the number 1 as "good" and thus the algorithm always gives 1 as the output. Or do you mean what most others mean by pseudo-random-- "you cannot predict the next output even if you know all of the past outputs in a timescale of less than 10 years. " > And my question is: If a PRNG combined with a given entropy from a non > deterministic source, the numbers generated are Pseudo, True, or Quasi- > True random? No idea what this question means. If you have a PRNG, you already have a stream of pseudo random numbers. Combined how? > > >
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