SR/GR use absolute time to synchronize the GPS clocks with the ground clock.
in [Relativity]
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From: kenseto on 26 Apr 2010 09:05 On Apr 25, 5:22 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Apr 25, 8:21 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 8:20 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Apr 24, 2:19 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 24, 11:22 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 24, 10:08 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 9:57 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 8:48 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 9:42 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 7:54 am, "kens...(a)erinet.com" <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 10:40 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 8:04 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 5:08 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 4:03 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 3:57 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail..com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 2:46 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet..com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 10:41 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 8:32 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 19, 12:24 pm, PD <thedraperfam....(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 19, 8:27 am, kenseto <kens....(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 2:18 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 11:11 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 1:14 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 10:05 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 16, 5:29 pm, moro....(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I need to rebut what SR says? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep saying there is an absolute frame. SR states there is no > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > absolute frame. If you're going to stick to your claim, you're going to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have to rebut SR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigh....SR doesn't say that.. SR says that it doen't need the absolute > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > frame after it adopted the laws of physics of the absolute frame. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop making things up, Ken. SR says no such thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you deny that the laws of physics in any inerial frame are the same > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as the laws of phyiscs in an absolute frame? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I deny that. The laws of physics in the absolute frame are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DIFFERENT than they are in inertial reference frames. That's what > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > distinguishes the absolute rest frame. That's what it means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then why can't you describe the differences in the laws of physics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > between an inertial frame and an absolute frame? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have already, Ken, in this thread. I characterized how, in inertial > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reference frames, the Newtonian laws of mechanics and the laws of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > electrodynamics hold. I also described how the laws of physics would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be different in an absolute reference frame. The properties that YOU > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > think are ascribed to an absolute reference frame are incorrect. Those > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are not the properties of an absolute reference frame. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No....every inertial frame adopts the special properties of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > absolute frame > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, Ken, what you say are the properties of the absolute frame are NOT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the properties of the absolute frame, as that word is used in physics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, you're just mistaken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is you who is mistaken. In the absolute frame the speed of light > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is isotropicc; a clock in the absolute frame is the fastest running > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clock in the universe and a meter stick in the absolute frame is the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > longest meter stick in th euniverse. Thes exclusive preferred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > properties are what make the absolute frame unique. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No sir. The term "absolute reference frame" is already taken in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > physics, and it means something completely different than what you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have made up in your own head. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No sir, the preferred properties of an absolute frame are exactly as I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > described above. Current physics cannot give the absolute frame a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > different meaning then what its preferred properties describe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those "preferred properties" are what you made up in your own head, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong a clock is a preferred clock if it is the fastest running clock > > > > > > > > > > > > in the universe. That's what the definition of "preferred" means. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that's what YOUR definition of "preferred" is. It is not the > > > > > > > > > > > meaning of the term as used in physics. Good heavens! Here is ANOTHER > > > > > > > > > > > word that you just made up the meaning of. > > > > > > > > > > > ROTFLOL....so now you are rejecting the valid definition of the word > > > > > > > > > > "preferred". > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter whether YOU think it is a valid definition or not, > > > > > > > > > Ken. What matters is what the definition of the term is AS USED IN > > > > > > > > > PHYSICS. > > > > > > > > > So current physics denys that the fastest running clock in the > > > > > > > > universe is not a prefeered clock? > > > > > > > > Exactly! Because this is true for EVERY clock. > > > > > > > No idiot....it is not true for every clock. If A is predicted to run > > > > > > faster than B then B must predict that A is running slower than A. > > > > > > No, Ken, that is not the case. I realize that this what makes sense to > > > > > you, but it is not the case. Your common sense is telling you a lie. > > > > > > This is really basic stuff, and you're stuck on it. > > > > > No....when you compare two clocks A and B the following two > > > > possibilities exist: > > > > 1. A runs faster than B then B runs slower than A. > > > > 2. B runs fasdter than B then A runs slower than B. > > > > There is no way that A runs faster than B and at the same time B runs > > > > faster than A. > > > > Yes, there is, Ken. You are taking this comparison to be an absolute, > > > frame-independent statement. It is not. There are lots of physics > > > comparisons where the relationships between two objects reverse when > > > you switch a reference frame. These are simple things that have been > > > noted by physicists ever since Galileo, four hundred years ago. > > > > I will give you a simple example where a relationship changes between > > > two objects, depending on the reference frame. The relationship is > > > "moving faster than", and we'll compare two cars, a Buick and a Dodge, > > > as they are seen by two observers. > > > Tom is in a red pickup truck and he looks out his window and he sees > > > the Buick and the Dodge. In Tom's reference frame, the Buick is moving > > > at 30 mph (relative to Tom) and the Dodge is moving at 10 mph > > > (relative to Tom). In Tom's frame, the Buick is moving faster than the > > > Dodge. > > > Sally is in a blue Corvette and she looks out her window and she sees > > > the same Buick and the Dodge. In Sally's reference frame, the Buick is > > > moving at 5 mph (relative to Sally) and the Dodge is moving at 25 mph > > > (relative to Sally). In Sally's frame, the Dodge is moving faster than > > > the Buick. > > > Hey idiot we are talking about the actual rate of accumulation of > > clock seconds on each clock which is frame independent....you example > > of speed is frame dependent. Why do you keep on trying to stray away > > from the actual discusion by giving stupid and irrelevant examples?? > > You cannot say whether actual rate of accumulation of clock seconds is > frame independent or not on the basis of common sense or logic alone. Sure I can and it is not based on common sense or logic alone. It is based on acrtual observations. > You need to look at experimental results. Your assertion that is is > frame-independent is not an argument and it is counter to ample > experimental evidence. Denying experimental evidence that is on record > is a pointless venture. All experiments agree that every clock run at its own rate independent of observer. However when an observer wants to compare the rate of an observed clock with his clock he uses SR/GR or IRT to make such comparison and such comparison is observer dependent. However, SR makes the fatal error by asserting that B sees (predicts) that A's clock is running slow when A's clock is actually running fast. This fatal error is due to the PoR assumption that all frames are equivalent and B assumes the properties of an absolute frame to make his erroneous conclusion. > > You were trying to make an argument on LOGICAL grounds that only one > relationship can be true: Either A is greater than B, or B is greater > than A. Yes this is confirmed by the GPS. From the ground point of view the SR effect on the GPS is 7 us/day running slow and from the GPS point of view the SR effect on the ground clock is ~7 us/day running fast. > Well, I've just given you a clear case where it is true that A is > greater than B *and* B is greater than A. (The speed of the Buick is > greater than the speed of the Buick, and the speed of the Buick is > greater than the speed of the Dodge.) It is easy to draw this on the > chalkboard so that this happens. > Therefore, there must be something wrong with the logical argument > that only one relationship can be true, since here is a case where > both relationships are true. > > Finally, since it's obvious even to you that this can happen for > speeds, you claim it is not possible for clock rates. Why you would > make this blank assertion that is true in one case and not in the > other, is just a > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -...
From: kenseto on 26 Apr 2010 09:12 On Apr 25, 5:26 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Apr 25, 8:28 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 8:22 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Apr 24, 2:25 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 24, 11:25 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 24, 10:20 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 9:57 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 8:48 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 9:42 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 7:54 am, "kens...(a)erinet.com" <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 10:40 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 8:04 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 5:08 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 4:03 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 3:57 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail..com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 2:46 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet..com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 10:41 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 8:32 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 19, 12:24 pm, PD <thedraperfam....(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 19, 8:27 am, kenseto <kens....(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 2:18 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 11:11 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 1:14 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 10:05 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 16, 5:29 pm, moro....(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I need to rebut what SR says? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep saying there is an absolute frame. SR states there is no > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > absolute frame. If you're going to stick to your claim, you're going to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have to rebut SR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigh....SR doesn't say that.. SR says that it doen't need the absolute > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > frame after it adopted the laws of physics of the absolute frame. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop making things up, Ken. SR says no such thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you deny that the laws of physics in any inerial frame are the same > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as the laws of phyiscs in an absolute frame? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I deny that. The laws of physics in the absolute frame are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DIFFERENT than they are in inertial reference frames. That's what > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > distinguishes the absolute rest frame. That's what it means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then why can't you describe the differences in the laws of physics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > between an inertial frame and an absolute frame? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have already, Ken, in this thread. I characterized how, in inertial > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reference frames, the Newtonian laws of mechanics and the laws of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > electrodynamics hold. I also described how the laws of physics would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be different in an absolute reference frame. The properties that YOU > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > think are ascribed to an absolute reference frame are incorrect. Those > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are not the properties of an absolute reference frame. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No....every inertial frame adopts the special properties of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > absolute frame > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, Ken, what you say are the properties of the absolute frame are NOT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the properties of the absolute frame, as that word is used in physics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, you're just mistaken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is you who is mistaken. In the absolute frame the speed of light > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is isotropicc; a clock in the absolute frame is the fastest running > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clock in the universe and a meter stick in the absolute frame is the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > longest meter stick in th euniverse. Thes exclusive preferred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > properties are what make the absolute frame unique. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No sir. The term "absolute reference frame" is already taken in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > physics, and it means something completely different than what you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have made up in your own head. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No sir, the preferred properties of an absolute frame are exactly as I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > described above. Current physics cannot give the absolute frame a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > different meaning then what its preferred properties describe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those "preferred properties" are what you made up in your own head, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong a clock is a preferred clock if it is the fastest running clock > > > > > > > > > > > > in the universe. That's what the definition of "preferred" means. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that's what YOUR definition of "preferred" is. It is not the > > > > > > > > > > > meaning of the term as used in physics. Good heavens! Here is ANOTHER > > > > > > > > > > > word that you just made up the meaning of. > > > > > > > > > > > ROTFLOL....so now you are rejecting the valid definition of the word > > > > > > > > > > "preferred". > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter whether YOU think it is a valid definition or not, > > > > > > > > > Ken. What matters is what the definition of the term is AS USED IN > > > > > > > > > PHYSICS. > > > > > > > > > So current physics denys that the fastest running clock in the > > > > > > > > universe is not a prefeered clock? > > > > > > > > Exactly! Because this is true for EVERY clock. Anything that is true > > > > > > > for EVERY clock cannot be for a PREFERRED clock only. If it were true > > > > > > > only for a preferred clock, then it would be true for one and only one > > > > > > > clock. But this isn't so. It is true for EVERY clock. > > > > > > > > Take three clocks in the universe: A, B, and C. They are all moving > > > > > > > relative to each other. > > > > > > > In the frame where A is at rest, A is running faster than B and C. If > > > > > > > A is the preferred clock, then this will not be true for B and C. > > > > > > > First of all no object in the universe is in the absolute frame....in > > > > > > case you are too stupid to understand that means that A is not a > > > > > > preferred observer. If A is truly running faster than B and C then > > > > > > from B's or C's point of view A is running faster then B and C. > > > > > > > > But it IS true for B and C. > > > > > > > No its not true...B and C will predict that A is running fast by a > > > > > > factor of gamma. > > > > > > No, Ken, this is wrong. It is not only predicted that A will run > > > > > SLOWER than B in B's frame, but it is MEASURED that A does in fact run > > > > > slower than B in B's frame. > > > > > No such measurement ever been performed.....in SR and from B's point > > > > of view he predicts that A run slow. However such prediction is > > > > wrong. > > > > That's a lie, Ken. There are several experiments that have shown this.. > > > It would help if you would actually read and comprehend an > > > experimental paper or five. > > > Then why don't you give us an experiment that compares two clocks A > > and B....where A is accumulating more clock seconds than B and at the > > same time where B is accumulating more clock seconds than A. > > I've given you this experiment before, and I just mentioned it again. > The lifetimes of decaying subatomic particles have been compared in > just this fashion, and that is just one example. Yes this is from the lab point of view that the life time of a decaying particle is longer compared to the life time of a same particle in the lab frame. However, from the moving particle point of view the lab particle is not decaying slow as SR predicted....it is decaying faster than the traveling particle. Ken Seto > > Ken, it would help if you would READ the references that have been > given to you, which may mean taking yourself to a library. That is > where you will find the experimental documentation. I don't know why > you expect a full explanation of them here, just because you can't > motivate yourself to get out of your chair. Are you helpless? > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > > > In the frame where B is at rest, B is running faster than A and C. > > > > > > > No....B is never run faster than A. This assertion is based on the > > > > > > bogus SR assertion that B is adopting the laws of physics of the > > > > > > absolute frame. > > > > > > No, it is not an empty assertion. It is an experimentally demonstrated > > > > > FACT. > > > > > No such experimental fact available. > > > > That's a lie, Ken. SR is backed by experimental facts, including this > > > one. > > > > > There is such SR assertion and > > > > assertion is not a valid arguement. > > > > Denial of documented experimental results is also not a valid > > > argument, Ken. It's up to you to read up on it more. > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > You can deny reality all you want, but reality does not conform to > > > > > your common sense, Ken. > > > > > > What your common sense is telling you is a LIE, Ken, and you have to > > > > > force yourself to abandon it. It's the only way you'll start to make > > > > > sense of what is actually OBSERVED in fact. > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > > > In the frame where C is at rest, C is running faster than A and B. > > > > > > > Since- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -... > > read more »
From: kenseto on 26 Apr 2010 09:27 On Apr 25, 11:58 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes: > >On Apr 23, 10:04 am, "Peter Webb" > ><webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > >> "kenseto" <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote in message > > >>news:722db482-a16c-4242-aea0-178696e0275b(a)y14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com.... > >> On Apr 23, 9:23 am, "Peter Webb" > > >> <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > >> > SR is wrong because it adopts the properties of an absolute frame and > >> > then turns around and claim that the absolute frame doesn't exist. > > >> > _______________________ > > >> > No, it doesn't. That's your problem; you don't understand what SR says. > >> > You > >> > should buy a book on it. > > >> Yes it does....Every inertial observer claims that his clock is the > >> fastest running clock in the universe.....that is the exclusive > >> property of a preferred frame. It appears that you need to study what > >> SR is really saying. > > >> ___________________________________ > >> Well, perhaps you would like to provide a quote from any book on Special > >> Relativity which says every inertial reference frame takes on the property > >> of the absolute frame which doesn't exist. > >Hey idiot can't you think for yourself? When an inertial observer > >claims the properties of the absolute frame he is using the absolute > >frame to do physics. > > Why not answer the guy's question rather than insult him? Show a quote > from any book on SR which says every inertial reference frame takes on the > property of the absolute frame. ROTFLOL....so the guy is you eh? The anwers are in every text book as follows: 1. does every inertial observer claims that his clock is the fastest running clock in the universe? The answe ris yes. 2. Does every inertial observer claims that his meter stick is the longest meter stick in the universe? The answer is yes. 3. Does every inertial observer claims that the speed of light is isotropic c in his frame? The answer is yes. What this mean is that every SR observer calims the preferred properties of an absolute frame. Ken Seto > > Heck, just show a quote from any book on SR that simply states an absolute > frame does exist.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: PD on 26 Apr 2010 09:29 On Apr 26, 8:05 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > On Apr 25, 5:22 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 25, 8:21 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > On Apr 24, 8:20 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 24, 2:19 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 24, 11:22 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 10:08 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 9:57 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 8:48 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 9:42 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 7:54 am, "kens...(a)erinet.com" <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 10:40 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 8:04 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 5:08 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 4:03 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 3:57 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 2:46 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 10:41 am, PD <thedraperfam....(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 8:32 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 19, 12:24 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 19, 8:27 am, kenseto <kens....(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 2:18 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 11:11 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 1:14 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 10:05 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 16, 5:29 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I need to rebut what SR says? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep saying there is an absolute frame. SR states there is no > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > absolute frame. If you're going to stick to your claim, you're going to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have to rebut SR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigh....SR doesn't say that. SR says that it doen't need the absolute > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > frame after it adopted the laws of physics of the absolute frame. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop making things up, Ken. SR says no such thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you deny that the laws of physics in any inerial frame are the same > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as the laws of phyiscs in an absolute frame? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I deny that. The laws of physics in the absolute frame are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DIFFERENT than they are in inertial reference frames. That's what > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > distinguishes the absolute rest frame. That's what it means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then why can't you describe the differences in the laws of physics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > between an inertial frame and an absolute frame? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have already, Ken, in this thread.. I characterized how, in inertial > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reference frames, the Newtonian laws of mechanics and the laws of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > electrodynamics hold. I also described how the laws of physics would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be different in an absolute reference frame. The properties that YOU > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > think are ascribed to an absolute reference frame are incorrect. Those > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are not the properties of an absolute reference frame. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No....every inertial frame adopts the special properties of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > absolute frame > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, Ken, what you say are the properties of the absolute frame are NOT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the properties of the absolute frame, as that word is used in physics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, you're just mistaken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is you who is mistaken. In the absolute frame the speed of light > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is isotropicc; a clock in the absolute frame is the fastest running > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clock in the universe and a meter stick in the absolute frame is the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > longest meter stick in th euniverse. Thes exclusive preferred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > properties are what make the absolute frame unique. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No sir. The term "absolute reference frame" is already taken in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > physics, and it means something completely different than what you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have made up in your own head. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No sir, the preferred properties of an absolute frame are exactly as I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > described above. Current physics cannot give the absolute frame a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > different meaning then what its preferred properties describe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those "preferred properties" are what you made up in your own head, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong a clock is a preferred clock if it is the fastest running clock > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the universe. That's what the definition of "preferred" means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that's what YOUR definition of "preferred" is. It is not the > > > > > > > > > > > > meaning of the term as used in physics. Good heavens! Here is ANOTHER > > > > > > > > > > > > word that you just made up the meaning of. > > > > > > > > > > > > ROTFLOL....so now you are rejecting the valid definition of the word > > > > > > > > > > > "preferred". > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter whether YOU think it is a valid definition or not, > > > > > > > > > > Ken. What matters is what the definition of the term is AS USED IN > > > > > > > > > > PHYSICS. > > > > > > > > > > So current physics denys that the fastest running clock in the > > > > > > > > > universe is not a prefeered clock? > > > > > > > > > Exactly! Because this is true for EVERY clock. > > > > > > > > No idiot....it is not true for every clock. If A is predicted to run > > > > > > > faster than B then B must predict that A is running slower than A. > > > > > > > No, Ken, that is not the case. I realize that this what makes sense to > > > > > > you, but it is not the case. Your common sense is telling you a lie. > > > > > > > This is really basic stuff, and you're stuck on it. > > > > > > No....when you compare two clocks A and B the following two > > > > > possibilities exist: > > > > > 1. A runs faster than B then B runs slower than A. > > > > > 2. B runs fasdter than B then A runs slower than B. > > > > > There is no way that A runs faster than B and at the same time B runs > > > > > faster than A. > > > > > Yes, there is, Ken. You are taking this comparison to be an absolute, > > > > frame-independent statement. It is not. There are lots of physics > > > > comparisons where the relationships between two objects reverse when > > > > you switch a reference frame. These are simple things that have been > > > > noted by physicists ever since Galileo, four hundred years ago. > > > > > I will give you a simple example where a relationship changes between > > > > two objects, depending on the reference frame. The relationship is > > > > "moving faster than", and we'll compare two cars, a Buick and a Dodge, > > > > as they are seen by two observers. > > > > Tom is in a red pickup truck and he looks out his window and he sees > > > > the Buick and the Dodge. In Tom's reference frame, the Buick is moving > > > > at 30 mph (relative to Tom) and the Dodge is moving at 10 mph > > > > (relative to Tom). In Tom's frame, the Buick is moving faster than the > > > > Dodge. > > > > Sally is in a blue Corvette and she looks out her window and she sees > > > > the same Buick and the Dodge. In Sally's reference frame, the Buick is > > > > moving at 5 mph (relative to Sally) and the Dodge is moving at 25 mph > > > > (relative to Sally). In Sally's frame, the Dodge is moving faster than > > > > the Buick. > > > > Hey idiot we are talking about the actual rate of accumulation of > > > clock seconds on each clock which is frame independent....you example > > > of speed is frame dependent. Why do you keep on trying to stray away > > > from the actual discusion by giving stupid and irrelevant examples?? > > > You cannot say whether actual rate of accumulation of clock seconds is > > frame independent or not on the basis of common sense or logic alone. > > Sure I can and it is not based on common sense or logic alone. It is > based on acrtual observations. Experiment disagrees with you, Ken. I've given you pointers to experimental data that shows that. > > > You need to look at experimental results. Your assertion that is is > > frame-independent is not an argument and it is counter to ample > > experimental evidence. Denying experimental evidence that is on record > > is a pointless venture. > > All experiments agree that every clock run at its own rate independent > of observer. However when an observer wants to compare the rate of an > observed clock with his clock he uses SR/GR or IRT to make such > comparison and such comparison is observer dependent. However, SR > makes the fatal error by asserting that B sees (predicts) that A's > clock is running slow when A's clock is actually running fast. This > fatal error is due to... > > read more »
From: PD on 26 Apr 2010 09:31
On Apr 26, 8:05 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > On Apr 25, 5:22 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Apr 25, 8:21 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > On Apr 24, 8:20 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 24, 2:19 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 24, 11:22 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 10:08 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 9:57 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 8:48 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 9:42 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 7:54 am, "kens...(a)erinet.com" <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 10:40 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 8:04 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 5:08 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 4:03 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 3:57 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 2:46 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 10:41 am, PD <thedraperfam....(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 8:32 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 19, 12:24 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 19, 8:27 am, kenseto <kens....(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 2:18 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 11:11 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 1:14 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 10:05 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 16, 5:29 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I need to rebut what SR says? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep saying there is an absolute frame. SR states there is no > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > absolute frame. If you're going to stick to your claim, you're going to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have to rebut SR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigh....SR doesn't say that. SR says that it doen't need the absolute > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > frame after it adopted the laws of physics of the absolute frame. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop making things up, Ken. SR says no such thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you deny that the laws of physics in any inerial frame are the same > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as the laws of phyiscs in an absolute frame? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I deny that. The laws of physics in the absolute frame are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DIFFERENT than they are in inertial reference frames. That's what > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > distinguishes the absolute rest frame. That's what it means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then why can't you describe the differences in the laws of physics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > between an inertial frame and an absolute frame? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have already, Ken, in this thread.. I characterized how, in inertial > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reference frames, the Newtonian laws of mechanics and the laws of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > electrodynamics hold. I also described how the laws of physics would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be different in an absolute reference frame. The properties that YOU > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > think are ascribed to an absolute reference frame are incorrect. Those > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are not the properties of an absolute reference frame. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No....every inertial frame adopts the special properties of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > absolute frame > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, Ken, what you say are the properties of the absolute frame are NOT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the properties of the absolute frame, as that word is used in physics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, you're just mistaken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it is you who is mistaken. In the absolute frame the speed of light > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is isotropicc; a clock in the absolute frame is the fastest running > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clock in the universe and a meter stick in the absolute frame is the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > longest meter stick in th euniverse. Thes exclusive preferred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > properties are what make the absolute frame unique. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No sir. The term "absolute reference frame" is already taken in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > physics, and it means something completely different than what you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have made up in your own head. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No sir, the preferred properties of an absolute frame are exactly as I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > described above. Current physics cannot give the absolute frame a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > different meaning then what its preferred properties describe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those "preferred properties" are what you made up in your own head, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong a clock is a preferred clock if it is the fastest running clock > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the universe. That's what the definition of "preferred" means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that's what YOUR definition of "preferred" is. It is not the > > > > > > > > > > > > meaning of the term as used in physics. Good heavens! Here is ANOTHER > > > > > > > > > > > > word that you just made up the meaning of. > > > > > > > > > > > > ROTFLOL....so now you are rejecting the valid definition of the word > > > > > > > > > > > "preferred". > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter whether YOU think it is a valid definition or not, > > > > > > > > > > Ken. What matters is what the definition of the term is AS USED IN > > > > > > > > > > PHYSICS. > > > > > > > > > > So current physics denys that the fastest running clock in the > > > > > > > > > universe is not a prefeered clock? > > > > > > > > > Exactly! Because this is true for EVERY clock. > > > > > > > > No idiot....it is not true for every clock. If A is predicted to run > > > > > > > faster than B then B must predict that A is running slower than A. > > > > > > > No, Ken, that is not the case. I realize that this what makes sense to > > > > > > you, but it is not the case. Your common sense is telling you a lie. > > > > > > > This is really basic stuff, and you're stuck on it. > > > > > > No....when you compare two clocks A and B the following two > > > > > possibilities exist: > > > > > 1. A runs faster than B then B runs slower than A. > > > > > 2. B runs fasdter than B then A runs slower than B. > > > > > There is no way that A runs faster than B and at the same time B runs > > > > > faster than A. > > > > > Yes, there is, Ken. You are taking this comparison to be an absolute, > > > > frame-independent statement. It is not. There are lots of physics > > > > comparisons where the relationships between two objects reverse when > > > > you switch a reference frame. These are simple things that have been > > > > noted by physicists ever since Galileo, four hundred years ago. > > > > > I will give you a simple example where a relationship changes between > > > > two objects, depending on the reference frame. The relationship is > > > > "moving faster than", and we'll compare two cars, a Buick and a Dodge, > > > > as they are seen by two observers. > > > > Tom is in a red pickup truck and he looks out his window and he sees > > > > the Buick and the Dodge. In Tom's reference frame, the Buick is moving > > > > at 30 mph (relative to Tom) and the Dodge is moving at 10 mph > > > > (relative to Tom). In Tom's frame, the Buick is moving faster than the > > > > Dodge. > > > > Sally is in a blue Corvette and she looks out her window and she sees > > > > the same Buick and the Dodge. In Sally's reference frame, the Buick is > > > > moving at 5 mph (relative to Sally) and the Dodge is moving at 25 mph > > > > (relative to Sally). In Sally's frame, the Dodge is moving faster than > > > > the Buick. > > > > Hey idiot we are talking about the actual rate of accumulation of > > > clock seconds on each clock which is frame independent....you example > > > of speed is frame dependent. Why do you keep on trying to stray away > > > from the actual discusion by giving stupid and irrelevant examples?? > > > You cannot say whether actual rate of accumulation of clock seconds is > > frame independent or not on the basis of common sense or logic alone. > > Sure I can and it is not based on common sense or logic alone. It is > based on acrtual observations. > > > You need to look at experimental results. Your assertion that is is > > frame-independent is not an argument and it is counter to ample > > experimental evidence. Denying experimental evidence that is on record > > is a pointless venture. > > All experiments agree that every clock run at its own rate independent > of observer. That is not correct, Ken. Experiment shows very clearly that clock rate is observer-dependent. Several examples have been provided to you, pointing you to experimental literature where this is noted. > However when an observer wants to compare the rate of an > observed clock with his clock he uses SR/GR or IRT to make such > comparison and such comparison is observer dependent. However, SR > makes the fatal error by asserting that B sees (predicts) that A's > clock is running slow when A's clock is actually running fast. This > fatal error is due to the PoR assumption that all frames are > equivalent and B assumes the properties of an absolute frame to make > his erroneous conclusion. > > > > > You were trying to make an argument on LOGICAL grounds that only one > > relationship can be true: Either A is greater than B, or B is greater > > than A. > > Yes this is confirmed by the GPS. No. Mutual time dilation is a claim that is made about clocks that are in *inertial* motion relative to each other. GPS is not an example of this. Perhaps you'd like to make up your own definition of "inertial". What do you think that word means? > From the ground point of view the SR > effect on the GPS is 7 us/day running slow and from the GPS point of > view the SR effect on the ground clock is ~7 us/day running fast.> Well, I've just given you a clear case where it is true that A is > > greater than B *and* B is greater than A. (The speed of the Buick is > > greater than the speed of the Buick, and the speed of the Buick is > > greater than the speed of the Dodge.) It is easy to draw this on the > > chalkboard so that this happens. > > Therefore, there must be something wrong with the logical argument > > that only one relationship can be true, since here is a case where > > both relationships are true. > > > Finally, since it's obvious even to you that this can happen for > > speeds, you claim it is not possible for clock rates. Why you would > > make this blank assertion that is true in one case and not in the > > other, is just a > > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -... > > |