From: Arno Wagner on
Previously Christian Franke <Christian.Franke(a)t-online.de> wrote:
> Arno Wagner wrote:
>> Previously Franc Zabkar <...> wrote:
>>> On 2 Sep 2007 05:29:04 GMT, Arno Wagner <me(a)privacy.net> put finger to
>>> keyboard and composed:
>>
>>>> Previously Franc Zabkar <...> wrote:
>>
>>>>> BTW, these are the SMART data for my Fujitsu 6GB drive:
>>>>> http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/SmartUDM/6GB.RPT
>>>>> Notice the raw value for "Power On Hours Count".
>>>>> 0000008EF98Ah = 9369994 dec
>>>>> = 1069 years
>>>>> In fact the figure appears to represent Power On Seconds.

> Yes, the FUJITSU MPE3064AT Attribute 9 raw value counts seconds.
> Other drives use hours, minutes or half minutes.
> Some SMART tools handle these differences, most don't.
> See info about Attribute 9 in http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/#FAQ


>>>> This is a non-standardized field, AFAIK. Bogus readings are
>>>> no surprise here.
>>>>
>>>> Arno
>>
>>> I suspect that the figures aren't necessarily bogus, they may just
>>> need to be interpreted differently between manufacturers.
>>
>> That is what I meant. The raw values ace accurate, but the interpreted
>> figures are ofteh wrong.
>>
>>> That said, I
>>> haven't been able to find any detailed SMART documentation at any of
>>> the manufacturers' web sites.
>>
>> SMART is part of the ATA spec. You can find specs on the t13 comitte
>> website here: http://www.t13.org/
>>

> Unlike SMART status, self-tests and logs, SMART attributes are *not*
> standardized in ATA-3...8. Even the general data format isn't standardized.

> Specific Attributes are only listed in a proposed informal annex for
> ATA-8. But it is still not included in the draft.

> See "ATA References" at http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/#references
> for links & comments.

Aha. Interesting! That explains the mess some attributes are.

Arno
From: Christian Franke on
Franc Zabkar wrote:
> ...
>>> I'm running Win98SE. ...
>>>
>> SMART diagnostic I/O does not show up as Windows I/O.
>
> Understood, and that's essentially what I wrote. I merely used Filemon
> to confirm that Everest wasn't doing something else as well. So the
> question remains, why does SMART diagnostic I/O cause the Seek Error
> Rate figure to change?
>

Any attribute may be updated during a "Auto Offline Data Collection".
This is intended to update the SMART attributes marked "Offline".

There is more detailed info in the smartctl man page.
See the description of the "--offlineauto" option at:
http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/man/smartctl.8.html
(BTW: this tool works also on Win9x/ME if driver provides smartvsd.vxd)

Christian
From: Franc Zabkar on
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 21:06:25 +0200, Christian Franke
<Christian.Franke(a)t-online.de> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>Franc Zabkar wrote:
>> ...
>>>> I'm running Win98SE. ...
>>>>
>>> SMART diagnostic I/O does not show up as Windows I/O.
>>
>> Understood, and that's essentially what I wrote. I merely used Filemon
>> to confirm that Everest wasn't doing something else as well. So the
>> question remains, why does SMART diagnostic I/O cause the Seek Error
>> Rate figure to change?
>>
>
>Any attribute may be updated during a "Auto Offline Data Collection".
>This is intended to update the SMART attributes marked "Offline".

OK, but why does the Seek Error Rate increase by 10 points when this
happens, if indeed that is what is happening? SmartUDM indicates that
SMART error logging is not supported, nor is SMART self-test, so I
can't see why the drive would be accessing the platters. Wouldn't the
SMART data be written to RAM or flash? In any case it seems to me that
the Seek Error Rate parameter is more like a count than a rate.

I have also verified that the Seek Error Rate figure increases by 10
in real DOS mode when using SmartUDM. Smartdrv is caching the disc
when I do this.

>There is more detailed info in the smartctl man page.
>See the description of the "--offlineauto" option at:
>http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/man/smartctl.8.html
>(BTW: this tool works also on Win9x/ME if driver provides smartvsd.vxd)
>
>Christian

I can't get Smartctl to run on my Win98SE box. Everest Home Edition
(Windows) has no problem, nor does SmartUDM (DOS). SMART is enabled in
the BIOS setup.

=====================================================================
smartctl -s on -a hda
smartctl version 5.37 [i686-mingw32-98] Copyright (C) 2002-6 Bruce
Allen
Home page is http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Model Family: Seagate U8 family
Device Model: ST313021A
Serial Number: 6CT0C4JE
Firmware Version: 3.03
User Capacity: 13,022,324,736 bytes
Device is: In smartctl database [for details use: -P show]
ATA Version is: 5
ATA Standard is: Exact ATA specification draft version not indicated
Local Time is: Tue Sep 04 13:50:44 2007 AUSEST
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

=== START OF ENABLE/DISABLE COMMANDS SECTION ===
SMART Enabled.
SMART Disabled. Use option -s with argument 'on' to enable it.
Press any key to continue . . .

=====================================================================

smartctl -c hda
smartctl version 5.37 [i686-mingw32-98] Copyright (C) 2002-6 Bruce
Allen
Home page is http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/

SMART Disabled. Use option -s with argument 'on' to enable it.
Press any key to continue . . .
=====================================================================

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
From: Christian Franke on
Franc Zabkar wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 21:06:25 +0200, Christian Franke
> <...> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>>> ...
>>>
>> Any attribute may be updated during a "Auto Offline Data Collection".
>> This is intended to update the SMART attributes marked "Offline".
>
> OK, but why does the Seek Error Rate increase by 10 points when this
> happens, if indeed that is what is happening? SmartUDM indicates that
> SMART error logging is not supported, nor is SMART self-test, so I
> can't see why the drive would be accessing the platters.

"Offline Data Collection" is different from self-test and should be
supported by a drive with "offline" attributes.


> Wouldn't the SMART data be written to RAM or flash?

Probably to disk platter itself;-)


> In any case it seems to me that
> the Seek Error Rate parameter is more like a count than a rate.
>

Sounds reasonable.


> ...
> I can't get Smartctl to run on my Win98SE box. Everest Home Edition
> (Windows) has no problem, nor does SmartUDM (DOS). SMART is enabled in
> the BIOS setup.
>
> =====================================================================
> smartctl -s on -a hda
> smartctl version 5.37 [i686-mingw32-98] Copyright (C) 2002-6 Bruce
> Allen
> Home page is http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/
>
> === START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
> Model Family: Seagate U8 family
> Device Model: ST313021A
> Serial Number: 6CT0C4JE
> Firmware Version: 3.03
> User Capacity: 13,022,324,736 bytes
> Device is: In smartctl database [for details use: -P show]
> ATA Version is: 5
> ATA Standard is: Exact ATA specification draft version not indicated
> Local Time is: Tue Sep 04 13:50:44 2007 AUSEST
> SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
> SMART support is: Enabled
>
> === START OF ENABLE/DISABLE COMMANDS SECTION ===
> SMART Enabled.
> SMART Disabled. Use option -s with argument 'on' to enable it.

Driver supports SMART, IDENTIFY works and reports SMART enabled, but
apparently SMART STATUS command returns an unexpected error.
The command "smartctl -r ioctl,2 -a hda" prints debug output including
I/O control parameters and return values.

Christian
From: Franc Zabkar on
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:50:41 +0200, Christian Franke
<Christian.Franke(a)t-online.de> put finger to keyboard and composed:

>Franc Zabkar wrote:
>> On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 21:06:25 +0200, Christian Franke
>> <...> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>> Any attribute may be updated during a "Auto Offline Data Collection".
>>> This is intended to update the SMART attributes marked "Offline".
>>
>> OK, but why does the Seek Error Rate increase by 10 points when this
>> happens, if indeed that is what is happening? SmartUDM indicates that
>> SMART error logging is not supported, nor is SMART self-test, so I
>> can't see why the drive would be accessing the platters.
>
>"Offline Data Collection" is different from self-test and should be
>supported by a drive with "offline" attributes.
>
>
> > Wouldn't the SMART data be written to RAM or flash?
>
>Probably to disk platter itself;-)

I'm assuming that the Identify Drive command retrieves data from solid
state memory and does not entail any seeking. If true, then an
Identify command should not cause any seek statistic to change.

To test this, I dropped back to real DOS, enabled Smartdrv disc
caching, and executed the following sequence of commands:

find-ata p m
smartudm
smartudm
find-ata p m
smartudm

Find-ATA is an old Seagate utility:
http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/IDE-identify/FIND-ATA.EXE

The result of the above test was an increase in the Seek Error Rate by
10 points.

I then executed the following:

smartudm
find-ata p m
find-ata p m
...
find-ata p m
smartudm

After 10 repetitions of the Identify command, the Seek Error Rate
still only increased by 10. This would tend to support the idea that
the Seek Error Rate is a genuine seek statistic of some kind, and that
SMART data may be stored on the platters. Having said that, I recall
reading recently that a firmware upgrade clears the SMART data, at
least on some brands of HD. This would suggest that such data are
stored in flash.

>> In any case it seems to me that
>> the Seek Error Rate parameter is more like a count than a rate.
>>
>
>Sounds reasonable.
>
>
>> ...
>> I can't get Smartctl to run on my Win98SE box. Everest Home Edition
>> (Windows) has no problem, nor does SmartUDM (DOS). SMART is enabled in
>> the BIOS setup.
>>
>> =====================================================================
>> smartctl -s on -a hda
....
>> === START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
>> Model Family: Seagate U8 family
>> Device Model: ST313021A
....
>> SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
>> SMART support is: Enabled
>>
>> === START OF ENABLE/DISABLE COMMANDS SECTION ===
>> SMART Enabled.
>> SMART Disabled. Use option -s with argument 'on' to enable it.
>
>Driver supports SMART, IDENTIFY works and reports SMART enabled, but
>apparently SMART STATUS command returns an unexpected error.
>The command "smartctl -r ioctl,2 -a hda" prints debug output including
>I/O control parameters and return values.
>
>Christian

Here is the output:
http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/Smartctl/smart_debug.txt

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.