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From: dorayme on 12 Feb 2010 17:51
In article <slrnhnbkhs.5tn.spamspam(a)bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <spamspam(a)spam.eggs> wrote:

> On 2010-02-12, Evertjan. <exjxw.hannivoort(a)interxnl.net> wrote:
> > dorayme wrote on 11 feb 2010 in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets:
> >
> >> In article <Xns9D1C74452C2FBeejj99(a)194.109.133.242>,
> >> "Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort(a)interxnl.net> wrote:
> >>
....
> >>> Negative statements can be disproved by just one positive example.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Not strictly true.
> >
> > True can only be strictly so,
> > otherwise it is not true,
> > but false,
>
> But if it's strictly false, then its negation would have to be strictly
> true. And if not strictly false, then why is non-strict falsehood
> allowed but not non-strict truth?
>
> For example I might say "John is good" of someone who is a generally
> good person but who, like everyone, is not absolutely perfect. So not
> strictly true.
>
> But if it were strictly false, then "John is not good" would have to be
> strictly true. But clearly that is not strictly true of John-- I just
> said he's a generally good person.
>
> If something's not strictly true then it's not strictly false either.
> The best we can say about it is that it's not strict.
>
> > disregarding cross browser incompatibilities.
> >
> > (not true) and (not false) is false.
>
> I wondered if dorayme was thinking of true but unprovable statements.

When I said that "Negative statements can be disproved by just
one positive example" I was thinking that it is not perfectly
clear what a negative statement really is or what would be
allowed by Evertjan to be proper members of the class of negative
statements. My "strictly" was a conciliatory gesture.

Anyway, here are just a couple of seemingly negative statements
(they are, after all, sprinkled with "no"s and "not"s.)

1. No bachelors are married

2. It is not the case that it is not raining anywhere in the
universe

The first one cannot be disproved by any number of positive
examples. They just can't be. Trust me. The second is probably
the equivalent of

3. It is raining somewhere in the universe

And, trust me again, you cannot disprove this by producing one
positive case of it not-raining somewhere. <g>

----

btw, I also endorse your comments.

--
dorayme
From: Ben C on 12 Feb 2010 18:20
On 2010-02-12, dorayme <doraymeRidThis(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote:
[...]
> When I said that "Negative statements can be disproved by just
> one positive example" I was thinking that it is not perfectly
> clear what a negative statement really is or what would be
> allowed by Evertjan to be proper members of the class of negative
> statements. My "strictly" was a conciliatory gesture.
>
> Anyway, here are just a couple of seemingly negative statements
> (they are, after all, sprinkled with "no"s and "not"s.)
>
> 1. No bachelors are married
>
> 2. It is not the case that it is not raining anywhere in the
> universe
>
> The first one cannot be disproved by any number of positive
> examples.

Isn't the problem more just the difficulty of being able to find any
positive examples?

> They just can't be. Trust me. The second is probably
> the equivalent of
>
> 3. It is raining somewhere in the universe
>
> And, trust me again, you cannot disprove this by producing one
> positive case of it not-raining somewhere. <g>

All you have to produce is one positive case of a universe in which it
isn't raining anywhere :)
From: dorayme on 12 Feb 2010 18:51
In article <slrnhnbofn.5tn.spamspam(a)bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <spamspam(a)spam.eggs> wrote:

> On 2010-02-12, dorayme <doraymeRidThis(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> [...]
> > When I said that "Negative statements can be disproved by just
> > one positive example" I was thinking that it is not perfectly
> > clear what a negative statement really is or what would be
> > allowed by Evertjan to be proper members of the class of negative
> > statements. My "strictly" was a conciliatory gesture.
> >
> > Anyway, here are just a couple of seemingly negative statements
> > (they are, after all, sprinkled with "no"s and "not"s.)
> >
> > 1. No bachelors are married
> >
> > 2. It is not the case that it is not raining anywhere in the
> > universe
> >
> > The first one cannot be disproved by any number of positive
> > examples.
>
> Isn't the problem more just the difficulty of being able to find any
> positive examples?
>

I was thinking more the impossibility in this case.


> > They just can't be. Trust me. The second is probably
> > the equivalent of
> >
> > 3. It is raining somewhere in the universe
> >
> > And, trust me again, you cannot disprove this by producing one
> > positive case of it not-raining somewhere. <g>
>
> All you have to produce is one positive case of a universe in which it
> isn't raining anywhere :)

The universe being referred to in 2 and 3 is ours, it is a member
of the set of all possible universes. Just one possible rainless
universe will not cut it even if one could establish such a
thing.

--
dorayme
From: Ben C on 13 Feb 2010 04:13
On 2010-02-12, dorayme <doraymeRidThis(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> In article <slrnhnbofn.5tn.spamspam(a)bowser.marioworld>,
> Ben C <spamspam(a)spam.eggs> wrote:
>
>> On 2010-02-12, dorayme <doraymeRidThis(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote:
[...]
>> > The second is probably the equivalent of
>> >
>> > 3. It is raining somewhere in the universe
>> >
>> > And, trust me again, you cannot disprove this by producing one
>> > positive case of it not-raining somewhere. <g>
>>
>> All you have to produce is one positive case of a universe in which it
>> isn't raining anywhere :)
>
> The universe being referred to in 2 and 3 is ours, it is a member
> of the set of all possible universes. Just one possible rainless
> universe will not cut it even if one could establish such a
> thing.

Yes, I was using universe in the strict sense of the word that implies
there is only one, the actual one.
From: Evertjan. on 13 Feb 2010 04:26
dorayme wrote on 12 feb 2010 in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets:

> 1. No bachelors are married
[..]
> The first one cannot be disproved by any number of positive
> examples. They just can't be. Trust me.
[..]

Logic is not a question of trust.

"No bachelors are married" can be disproved
by showing just one married "bachelor".

Just produce a married person with B.S. or B.A. after the name.

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
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