Solar panel efficency
in [Design]
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From: Paul Keinanen on 5 Jun 2010 02:17 On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:07:58 -0700, Don Lancaster <don(a)tinaja.com> wrote: >On 6/4/2010 5:41 PM, Bill Bowden wrote: >> How about hydro-electric which qualifies as renewable. Why waste time >> with solar if economics are better with hydro? Or is this a dumb >> question? >> >> -Bill > > >Most of the useful hydro sites are taken, and many are now being torn down. > >In retrospect, most dam sites turned into ecological and economic disasters. > >A recent book gives a choice: You can keep lake Mead or keep lake >Powell, but not both. As guaranteed by long term drought. > >A dam presents a dilemma: The power people want it full all the time. >The flood control people want it empty all the time. The irrigation >people want its level to change all the time. The rec people do not care >whether the dam is full or empty but want the level to stay the same. In addition to this, the utility companies want a full dam in the morning (and empty in the evening) to compensate for the daily load variations. Wind power people would like to have full dam when the wind dies out and sufficient dam capacity, until the wind starts blowing again.
From: Grant on 5 Jun 2010 04:16 On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 09:17:45 +0300, Paul Keinanen <keinanen(a)sci.fi> wrote: >On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:07:58 -0700, Don Lancaster <don(a)tinaja.com> >wrote: > >>On 6/4/2010 5:41 PM, Bill Bowden wrote: > >>> How about hydro-electric which qualifies as renewable. Why waste time >>> with solar if economics are better with hydro? Or is this a dumb >>> question? >>> >>> -Bill >> >> >>Most of the useful hydro sites are taken, and many are now being torn down. >> >>In retrospect, most dam sites turned into ecological and economic disasters. >> >>A recent book gives a choice: You can keep lake Mead or keep lake >>Powell, but not both. As guaranteed by long term drought. >> >>A dam presents a dilemma: The power people want it full all the time. >>The flood control people want it empty all the time. The irrigation >>people want its level to change all the time. The rec people do not care >>whether the dam is full or empty but want the level to stay the same. > >In addition to this, the utility companies want a full dam in the >morning (and empty in the evening) to compensate for the daily load >variations. Overnight the power people can pump water back up into the dam for tomorrow, use up the base load from nuke stations? > >Wind power people would like to have full dam when the wind dies out >and sufficient dam capacity, until the wind starts blowing again. Grant.
From: Paul Keinanen on 5 Jun 2010 04:41 On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 18:16:47 +1000, Grant <omg(a)grrr.id.au> wrote: >On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 09:17:45 +0300, Paul Keinanen <keinanen(a)sci.fi> wrote: > >>On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:07:58 -0700, Don Lancaster <don(a)tinaja.com> >>wrote: >> >>>On 6/4/2010 5:41 PM, Bill Bowden wrote: >> >>>> How about hydro-electric which qualifies as renewable. Why waste time >>>> with solar if economics are better with hydro? Or is this a dumb >>>> question? >>>> >>>> -Bill >>> >>> >>>Most of the useful hydro sites are taken, and many are now being torn down. >>> >>>In retrospect, most dam sites turned into ecological and economic disasters. >>> >>>A recent book gives a choice: You can keep lake Mead or keep lake >>>Powell, but not both. As guaranteed by long term drought. >>> >>>A dam presents a dilemma: The power people want it full all the time. >>>The flood control people want it empty all the time. The irrigation >>>people want its level to change all the time. The rec people do not care >>>whether the dam is full or empty but want the level to stay the same. >> >>In addition to this, the utility companies want a full dam in the >>morning (and empty in the evening) to compensate for the daily load >>variations. > >Overnight the power people can pump water back up into the dam for >tomorrow, use up the base load from nuke stations? The pumping efficiency is lower than the hydroelectric production efficiency, thus the total annual energy consumption would be larger than using the water in the hydroelectric plant only once. The night energy should be really cheap for the pumping system to make sense.
From: Grant on 5 Jun 2010 06:55 On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:41:50 +0300, Paul Keinanen <keinanen(a)sci.fi> wrote: >On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 18:16:47 +1000, Grant <omg(a)grrr.id.au> wrote: > >>On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 09:17:45 +0300, Paul Keinanen <keinanen(a)sci.fi> wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:07:58 -0700, Don Lancaster <don(a)tinaja.com> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On 6/4/2010 5:41 PM, Bill Bowden wrote: >>> >>>>> How about hydro-electric which qualifies as renewable. Why waste time >>>>> with solar if economics are better with hydro? Or is this a dumb >>>>> question? >>>>> >>>>> -Bill >>>> >>>> >>>>Most of the useful hydro sites are taken, and many are now being torn down. >>>> >>>>In retrospect, most dam sites turned into ecological and economic disasters. >>>> >>>>A recent book gives a choice: You can keep lake Mead or keep lake >>>>Powell, but not both. As guaranteed by long term drought. >>>> >>>>A dam presents a dilemma: The power people want it full all the time. >>>>The flood control people want it empty all the time. The irrigation >>>>people want its level to change all the time. The rec people do not care >>>>whether the dam is full or empty but want the level to stay the same. >>> >>>In addition to this, the utility companies want a full dam in the >>>morning (and empty in the evening) to compensate for the daily load >>>variations. >> >>Overnight the power people can pump water back up into the dam for >>tomorrow, use up the base load from nuke stations? > >The pumping efficiency is lower than the hydroelectric production >efficiency, thus the total annual energy consumption would be larger >than using the water in the hydroelectric plant only once. The night >energy should be really cheap for the pumping system to make sense. > Oh sure, it only makes sense when soaking up the base load, maybe these days there's less daily fluctuation because large industrial users like aluminium smelters can adjust their usage to suit the generators? They used to sell off-peak for about a 1/3 of peak price here for overnight hot water heating. But soon we getting 'smart' metering with the day divvied up into 30 minute blocks, then they charge depending on cost -- soon sort out those high peak home users with airco and no local solar ;) A trial solar plant started near here recently too, we got the sun, the deserts, and various ideas mooted for solar, not all are based on PV panels. Grant. -- http://bugs.id.au/
From: Jan Panteltje on 5 Jun 2010 07:46
On a sunny day (Sat, 05 Jun 2010 09:17:45 +0300) it happened Paul Keinanen <keinanen(a)sci.fi> wrote in <1pqj06tmsus7rg89q90aauv4nkcp3k16o2(a)4ax.com>: > >In addition to this, the utility companies want a full dam in the >morning (and empty in the evening) to compensate for the daily load >variations. > >Wind power people would like to have full dam when the wind dies out >and sufficient dam capacity, until the wind starts blowing again. I have just invented the oil-pressure generator. You connect it to leaking oil wells, the oil flow pressure drives a generator. ;-) No CO2 |