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From: Anamitra Palit on 24 Nov 2009 18:54
Special Relativity does not allow infinitely fast signals. Let us
consider the creaction of charged particles(particle -antiparticle
pair) in the light of this fact.On creation of the particles
information of the creation spreads of at a maximun speed of 'c' that
is the speed of light. After time t only a sphere of radius ct has the
knowledge of the particle/antiparticle) and their gravitational and
electromagnetic fields.As information spreads the sphere expands and
and so also its energy content.The gravitational and electromagnetic/
electrostatic energy increases. Where does this extra energy come
from?
Would it be proper to speculate the the creation of
particles at some point of the universe should should go hand in hand
with the destruction of particles at some other point to maintain the
conservation of energy principle?
[The forgoing statement is not a claim but a speculation.]
From: YBM on 24 Nov 2009 19:21
Anamitra Palit a �crit :
> Special Relativity does not allow infinitely fast signals. Let us
> consider the creaction of charged particles(particle -antiparticle
> pair) in the light of this fact.On creation of the particles
> information of the creation spreads of at a maximun speed of 'c' that
> is the speed of light. After time t only a sphere of radius ct has the
> knowledge of the particle/antiparticle) and their gravitational and
> electromagnetic fields.As information spreads the sphere expands and
> and so also its energy content.The gravitational and electromagnetic/
> electrostatic energy increases. Where does this extra energy come
> from?

There is no extra energy. Even from the point of view of the
place were the pair appeared, there were no extra energy, just
a change from kinetic and/or light frequency energy to mass.
(BTW, there is not, by itself, 'electromagnetic' energy).

Same from the point of view of any other, moving or not, observer.
From: Androcles on 24 Nov 2009 19:41

"Anamitra Palit" <palit.anamitra(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c9faae71-421b-45ed-a918-6e30a43be9b6(a)15g2000prz.googlegroups.com...
> Special Relativity does not allow infinitely fast signals.

So what?
SR is nothing more than a lunatic's assumption anyway, based on
a ridiculous assertion:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Shapiro/Crapiro.htm



Let us
> consider the creaction of charged particles(particle -antiparticle
> pair) in the light of this fact.On creation of the particles
> information of the creation spreads of at a maximun speed of 'c' that
> is the speed of light. After time t only a sphere of radius ct has the
> knowledge of the particle/antiparticle) and their gravitational and
> electromagnetic fields.As information spreads the sphere expands and
> and so also its energy content.

Where do you get that absurd idea from?


> The gravitational and electromagnetic/
> electrostatic energy increases. Where does this extra energy come
> from?

Bullshit. You imagine increases, you tell us where it comes from.


> Would it be proper to speculate the the creation of
> particles at some point of the universe should should go hand in hand
> with the destruction of particles at some other point to maintain the
> conservation of energy principle?

No it would not.


> [The forgoing statement is not a claim but a speculation.]
An idle one at that.



From: Tom Roberts on 24 Nov 2009 20:08
Anamitra Palit wrote:
> Special Relativity does not allow infinitely fast signals. Let us
> consider the creaction of charged particles(particle -antiparticle
> pair) in the light of this fact.On creation of the particles
> information of the creation spreads of at a maximun speed of 'c' that
> is the speed of light. After time t only a sphere of radius ct has the
> knowledge of the particle/antiparticle) and their gravitational and
> electromagnetic fields.As information spreads the sphere expands and
> and so also its energy content.The gravitational and electromagnetic/
> electrostatic energy increases. Where does this extra energy come
> from?

There are several mistakes and confusions here, that combine together to
make your question rather complicated.

There really is no problem: energy is conserved locally, so just before
the pair creation occurred there was sufficient energy there to equal
the energies of the particles after the creation. This is one of the
situations that shows that gravity cannot couple just to mass, but must
couple to all forms of energy that can be inter-converted. Similarly,
the EM fields don't change from just before to just after the pair
creation, because the two particles at the same location have the same
fields as no charge; as the particles separate, this is just the same as
when any particles move, so there is clearly no problem or issue.

The "knowledge" of the creation is confined within a sphere whose radius
expands with local speed c. In SR, assuming this happened in vacuum, the
total energy within that sphere remains constant (in GR such a total
energy is not well defined, in general).


> Would it be proper to speculate the the creation of
> particles at some point of the universe should should go hand in hand
> with the destruction of particles at some other point to maintain the
> conservation of energy principle?

No. The creation of particles at one point goes hand in hand with the
destruction of particles at that same point, at the same time. This is
because energy is conserved LOCALLY (i.e. at each and every point in the
spacetime manifold). That is valid in SR and GR; quantum theories modify
the details, but produce no large-scale (i.e. measurable) violations.


Tom Roberts
From: BURT on 24 Nov 2009 23:29
On Nov 24, 5:08 pm, Tom Roberts <tjroberts...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Anamitra Palit wrote:
> > Special Relativity does not allow infinitely fast signals. Let us
> > consider the creaction of charged particles(particle -antiparticle
> > pair) in the light of this fact.On creation of the particles
> > information of the creation spreads of at a maximun speed of 'c' that
> > is the speed of light. After time t only a sphere of radius ct has the
> > knowledge of the particle/antiparticle) and their gravitational and
> > electromagnetic fields.As information spreads the sphere expands and
> > and so also its energy content.The gravitational and electromagnetic/
> > electrostatic energy increases. Where does this extra energy come
> > from?
>
> There are several mistakes and confusions here, that combine together to
> make your question rather complicated.
>
> There really is no problem: energy is conserved locally, so just before
> the pair creation occurred there was sufficient energy there to equal
> the energies of the particles after the creation. This is one of the
> situations that shows that gravity cannot couple just to mass, but must
> couple to all forms of energy that can be inter-converted. Similarly,
> the EM fields don't change from just before to just after the pair
> creation, because the two particles at the same location have the same
> fields as no charge; as the particles separate, this is just the same as
> when any particles move, so there is clearly no problem or issue.
>
> The "knowledge" of the creation is confined within a sphere whose radius
> expands with local speed c. In SR, assuming this happened in vacuum, the
> total energy within that sphere remains constant (in GR such a total
> energy is not well defined, in general).
>
> >           Would it be proper to speculate the the creation of
> > particles at some point of the universe should should go hand in hand
> > with the destruction of particles at some other point to maintain the
> > conservation of energy principle?
>
> No. The creation of particles at one point goes hand in hand with the
> destruction of particles at that same point, at the same time. This is
> because energy is conserved LOCALLY (i.e. at each and every point in the
> spacetime manifold). That is valid in SR and GR; quantum theories modify
> the details, but produce no large-scale (i.e. measurable) violations.
>
> Tom Roberts

Move toward light and it is blueshifted in the aether. Flow at an 90
degree angle and there is no energy shift. Light coming from behind is
redshifted. All the angles inbetween represent light's shift inbetween
minimum and maximum energy.

Mitch Raemsch
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