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From: ruds on 26 Jun 2010 02:03
Hey,
Thank you all for the tips.
I'll go with JSF as my next step.
From: Lew on 5 Jul 2010 04:54
Ken wrote:
> If we really want to take a step forward in JAVA [sic] programming probably
> we need to see what is new around. This is not an advertisement,

Sure it isn't.

> though I am in fact one of developers of this thing. I see that
> participants of this group are really experienced and qualified and
> would like to know your opinion about one new framework named
> HybridJava.

I'm not impressed.

It's like the worst of JSP but dropping the <% %> makes it really hard to read
the code. You claim to have MVC structure, but mingle presentation and logic
willy-nilly. You're not supposed to do that in JSP either, but at least when
you do there's a visual clue.

In the code examples you don't set off tag attributes in quotes. You don't
follow the Java naming conventions, or even consistently spell the name of the
Java language correctly in your site. You leave off the curly braces in code
blocks. That sort of carelessness in your code examples might mean nothing
but it raises red flags.

Your tags are weird - not really HTML-like at all. You also don't follow
modern conventions for HTML.

You place arbitrary rules for page-file directory structures, which JSP does not.

Tag libraries are cleaner than your approach.

You try to sound better than JSP. Aside from the fact that you aren't, the
world is moving to XHTML-based frameworks, such as facelets, putting you ever
farther behind the times.

I recommend folks stick with JSP or facelets for Java web stuff, and use
stricter MVC separation than you show.

--
Lew
From: Ken on 12 Jul 2010 16:33
Hi Lew! Thank you for you comments. Actually you've touched a lot of
issues, so probably I would not be able to address all of them right
now. This time want to tell the following. Your logic is not quite
perfect. It looks like you have a systematic problem with separating
Mandatory from Optional.

> You don't follow the Java naming conventions, or even onsistently spell the name of the
> Java language correctly in your site. You leave off the curly braces in code
> blocks. That sort of carelessness in your code examples might mean nothing
> but it raises red flags.

This whole paragraph is about Optional. You MAY follow whatever naming
conventions you like - HybridJava Compiler does not care. Same as Java
Compiler does not care.

You MAY handle blocks as you like. HybridJava Compiler does not care.
Same as Java Compiler does not care.

You MAY make typos in commentaries as well. All this paragraph is
written to discredit the author. It is not relevant to HybridJava at
all.

I would tell you something more regarding the so called Java Coding
Convensions, but this isout of topic.

> Your tags are weird - not really HTML-like at all. You also don't follow
> modern conventions for HTML.

Never heard about "modern conventions for HTML", but you MAY follow
them with HybridJava unlimited. And what is it HTML-like tags?
HybridJava understands all HTML tags and style of those you yourself
define with widgets - it is OPTIONAL for you to define them in any
style (within the tag paradigm).

> You place arbitrary rules for page-file directory structures, which JSP does not.

Well that is a currently popular approach. See Maven or Web4J, Putting
files god kbnows where with subsequent end-less configuration is for
my much uglier. JSP does not? It does not, but many JSP
implementations do, like WebSphere.

> Tag libraries are cleaner than your approach.

Not cleaner and with way less functionality. Those crasy .tld files -
are they really necessary?

> Aside from the fact that you aren't, the
> world is moving to XHTML-based frameworks, such as facelets, putting you ever
> farther behind the times.

This is about Optional again. HybridJava does not care if you use HTML
or XHTML. In particular you would notice (if you really read those
about 15 pages of documentations) <br> and <br/> is all the same for
HybridJava. So you note is IRRELEVANT to HybridJava. Would it be in a
different topic I would assure you that XHTML is dead as of July 2,
2009, when the W3C decided to let the XHTML2 Working Group charter
expire. One can find statements like "world is moving to XHTML" on the
WWW. The latest I found is dated 2002.

> I recommend folks stick with JSP or facelets for Java web stuff, and use
> stricter MVC separation than you show.
> You claim to have MVC structure, but mingle presentation and logic
> willy-nilly. You're not supposed to do that in JSP either

What a mess! If you really succeed with 100% separation of
presentation and logic you well stay with static HTML. You may be
surprised, but for dynamic presentation layer you NEED a thing called
"presentation logic". If you tweak the syntax and camouflage "if" as
"<if", that does not change a dime.

And, again, that is about Optional. You know that in HTML standard
conditional and repetitive tags, I suggest that satisfies you.
HybridJava is different in that this kind of tags are definable by
user. Address the Sample Application again and see that indeed at the
pages level the "mingle" is nothing heavier than in JSP 2.0.

> In the code examples you don't set off tag attributes in quotes.
FYI: HybridJava combines HTML and Java not only in syntax, but in
semantic as well. So <w p="x"
is not the same as <w p=x. You know that in Java x=y is not the same
as x="y".

From: Arne Vajhøj on 12 Jul 2010 21:22
On 12-07-2010 16:33, Ken wrote:
> Hi Lew! Thank you for you comments. Actually you've touched a lot of
> issues, so probably I would not be able to address all of them right
> now. This time want to tell the following. Your logic is not quite
> perfect. It looks like you have a systematic problem with separating
> Mandatory from Optional.

I think he has the handicap of knowing how professional Java code
looks like.

You don't seem to have that "problem".

>> You don't follow the Java naming conventions, or even onsistently spell the name of the
>> Java language correctly in your site. You leave off the curly braces in code
>> blocks. That sort of carelessness in your code examples might mean nothing
>> but it raises red flags.
>
> This whole paragraph is about Optional. You MAY follow whatever naming
> conventions you like - HybridJava Compiler does not care. Same as Java
> Compiler does not care.
>
> You MAY handle blocks as you like. HybridJava Compiler does not care.
> Same as Java Compiler does not care.
>
> You MAY make typos in commentaries as well. All this paragraph is
> written to discredit the author. It is not relevant to HybridJava at
> all.

The java compiler does not complain.

But you should expect all experience Java programmers immediately
to recognize beginner code.

>> Tag libraries are cleaner than your approach.
>
> Not cleaner and with way less functionality. Those crasy .tld files -
> are they really necessary?

Yes, since the information in them is not available elsewhere.

>> Aside from the fact that you aren't, the
>> world is moving to XHTML-based frameworks, such as facelets, putting you ever
>> farther behind the times.
>
> This is about Optional again. HybridJava does not care if you use HTML
> or XHTML. In particular you would notice (if you really read those
> about 15 pages of documentations)<br> and<br/> is all the same for
> HybridJava. So you note is IRRELEVANT to HybridJava. Would it be in a
> different topic I would assure you that XHTML is dead as of July 2,
> 2009, when the W3C decided to let the XHTML2 Working Group charter
> expire.

Nonsense.

Yes, XHTML 2.0 was cancelled.

But XHTMl is part of the coming HTML 5 spec, so XHTML is alive and
kicking.

Arne
From: Ken on 12 Jul 2010 23:33
> I think he has the handicap of knowing how professional Java code
> looks like.
>
> You don't seem to have that "problem".

I do not have that problem. The handicap belongs to people form Sun. I
leaved and programmed for 25 years before Java. Without Java Code
Conventions I was doomed to live in sin for 25 years. And sin is
sweet.

>
> The java compiler does not complain.
>
> But you should expect all experience Java programmers immediately
> to recognize beginner code.

Oh, let let them recognize that. I forsee feeling young again because
of that.

> > Those crasy .tld files -
> > are they really necessary?
>
> Yes, since the information in them is not available elsewhere.

And probably not necessary as well. Why did I do without such thing in
HybridJava?

> > 2009, when the W3C decided to let the XHTML2 Working Group charter
> > expire.
>
> Nonsense.

I have warned that talking about XHTML is not relevant. Let XHTML
prosper for the next 10 000 years. HybridJava Compiler is agnostic of
HTML/XHTML. Whatever you use at the input that you get at the output.
Jim was dissapointed that examples are written not in XHTML I guess.

>>>>>>>>>
Correction: plese instead of "in HTML standard conditional and
repetitive tags, I suggest that satisfies you." read: "in JSP 2.0
standard there are conditional and repetitive tags, I suggest that
those satisfy you."

I did not comment about MVC yet. Looks like I was able to explain that
View is not a result of taking all logic away. And separation of
presentation layer of whatever else is not a separation between Java
and ... HTML? ... JSP? - not sure what those separating folks mean.
Read about 5 principles of MVC Component Model on our site - what
other techology may match that?

K
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