The Perfect Computer - 36 bits?
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From: krw on 29 Mar 2007 18:55 In article <xJ6dnXEY0JL_ipHbRVnyigA(a)bt.com>, am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com says... > krw wrote: > > In article <Mu2dnV2jQ7yzn5HbnZ2dnUVZ8ternZ2d(a)bt.com>, > > am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com says... > >> Jan Vorbrüggen wrote: > >> [snip] > >> > >>> They do, and VMS is still being actively developed. AFAIK, even the > >>> Alpha is not only being supported but being actively developed. Even > >>> VAX/VMS was being updated, not just supported, just a few years ago. A > >>> significant number of people a running VMS virtual machines on their PCs > >>> because they never ported their applications to something else. It seems > >>> likely that these VMs are the fastest VAXen ever built 8-). > >>> > >>> Jan > >> Hmmm. If the VAX and ALPHA instruction sets are now public source then > >> clones can be made. Using a PC or Apple bus permits off the shelf ram > >> modules and disk drives can be purchased. Writing the CPUs in C or VHDL > >> will allow them to be tested on a FPGA and manufactured as ASICs. > >> Recompiling the ASIC every 18 months will permit the processor board to > >> speed up as the chip foundries reduce gate sizes. > > > > You make processor development sound so simple. Why do you need to > > make an FPGA model? Simulations tell you everything you need to > > know, likely faster for less money. There will things that > > simulations may not find but there is no reason to believe that an > > FPGA model will find them any faster/better. > > > > Simulators cannot talk to PC buses etc FPGAs can. Bullshit. You clearly haven't a clue what you're talking about. > There will be things in there that are not in the documentation. There had better not be or your FPGA ain't gunna work either. > >> A CPU on an ASIC will be able to match block move instructions performed > >> by the emulator, other instruction should be 5 to 10 times faster. > > > > ASIC is the wrong answer. AFAIK all processors today are custom > > chips. > > > >> To keep the general public happy running programs by clicking a mouse > >> will be needed. Someone is going to have fun converting clerical > >> software like OpenOffice. New native mode device handlers will need > >> writing to support the standard peripherals. A way of emulating the PC > >> which allows device handlers written in X86 to run thereby permits users > >> to buy other hardware modules in the shops. > >> > >> VAX/VMS the reliable alternative to Windows PCs. > > > > You're dreaming. That bus left a long time ago. > > Probably, it is Linux that will have to clean up the mess Microsoft > makes. Maybe, but I rather doubt it. -- Keith
From: Peter Flass on 29 Mar 2007 18:57 Andrew Swallow wrote: > > Hmmm. If the VAX and ALPHA instruction sets are now public source then > clones can be made. Using a PC or Apple bus permits off the shelf ram > modules and disk drives can be purchased. Writing the CPUs in C or VHDL > will allow them to be tested on a FPGA and manufactured as ASICs. > Recompiling the ASIC every 18 months will permit the processor board to > speed up as the chip foundries reduce gate sizes. I'd buy one. > > A CPU on an ASIC will be able to match block move instructions performed > by the emulator, other instruction should be 5 to 10 times faster. > > To keep the general public happy running programs by clicking a mouse > will be needed. Someone is going to have fun converting clerical > software like OpenOffice. New native mode device handlers will need > writing to support the standard peripherals. A way of emulating the PC > which allows device handlers written in X86 to run thereby permits users > to buy other hardware modules in the shops. VMS has DECWindows, which, I believe, is X-Windows (yes, I know its official name is longer...). You've got the GUI support for an Open Office port. You'd just need to build a library that fron-ended VMS system calls. > > VAX/VMS the reliable alternative to Windows PCs. > A Marchant calculater is a reliable alternative...
From: Andrew Swallow on 29 Mar 2007 19:10 krw wrote: > In article <xJ6dnXEY0JL_ipHbRVnyigA(a)bt.com>, > am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com says... >> krw wrote: >>> In article <Mu2dnV2jQ7yzn5HbnZ2dnUVZ8ternZ2d(a)bt.com>, >>> am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com says... >>>> Jan Vorbr�ggen wrote: >>>> [snip] >>>> >>>>> They do, and VMS is still being actively developed. AFAIK, even the >>>>> Alpha is not only being supported but being actively developed. Even >>>>> VAX/VMS was being updated, not just supported, just a few years ago. A >>>>> significant number of people a running VMS virtual machines on their PCs >>>>> because they never ported their applications to something else. It seems >>>>> likely that these VMs are the fastest VAXen ever built 8-). >>>>> >>>>> Jan >>>> Hmmm. If the VAX and ALPHA instruction sets are now public source then >>>> clones can be made. Using a PC or Apple bus permits off the shelf ram >>>> modules and disk drives can be purchased. Writing the CPUs in C or VHDL >>>> will allow them to be tested on a FPGA and manufactured as ASICs. >>>> Recompiling the ASIC every 18 months will permit the processor board to >>>> speed up as the chip foundries reduce gate sizes. >>> You make processor development sound so simple. Why do you need to >>> make an FPGA model? Simulations tell you everything you need to >>> know, likely faster for less money. There will things that >>> simulations may not find but there is no reason to believe that an >>> FPGA model will find them any faster/better. >>> >> Simulators cannot talk to PC buses etc FPGAs can. > > Bullshit. You clearly haven't a clue what you're talking about. > >> There will be things in there that are not in the documentation. > > There had better not be or your FPGA ain't gunna work either. True. That is why the interface is debugged using an easily changed FPGA rather than a custom chip. > >>>> A CPU on an ASIC will be able to match block move instructions performed >>>> by the emulator, other instruction should be 5 to 10 times faster. >>> ASIC is the wrong answer. AFAIK all processors today are custom >>> chips. >>> >>>> To keep the general public happy running programs by clicking a mouse >>>> will be needed. Someone is going to have fun converting clerical >>>> software like OpenOffice. New native mode device handlers will need >>>> writing to support the standard peripherals. A way of emulating the PC >>>> which allows device handlers written in X86 to run thereby permits users >>>> to buy other hardware modules in the shops. >>>> >>>> VAX/VMS the reliable alternative to Windows PCs. >>> You're dreaming. That bus left a long time ago. >> Probably, it is Linux that will have to clean up the mess Microsoft >> makes. > > Maybe, but I rather doubt it. >
From: krw on 29 Mar 2007 19:19 In article <m3wt0zkff2.fsf(a)garlic.com>, lynn(a)garlic.com says... > > krw <krw(a)att.bizzzz> writes: > > No system final test was being "outsourced" to anyone. The '70s were > > dire times for IBM. I've been told they were as bad as the early > > '90s, but covered it somewhat better. > > at least some of which might be considered still attempting to recover > from the side-trip into future system project. i had been told that if > it had been any other company that dumped that much money down such a > hole (as went into FS), they would have gone under ... aside from the > issue of lost time and having to scramble to get back into the game. > numerous past posts mentioning FS > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#futuresys FS wasn't the big problem. No income was a a far bigger problem. The economy of the mid '70s was horrid. With inflation going into the double digits it takes some pair to lay out a few megabux on blinkin' lights. -- Keith (hired in just under the wire in '74)
From: glen herrmannsfeldt on 29 Mar 2007 20:31
Jan Vorbr�ggen wrote: > VMS has a WATCH facility which lets you monitor reads or writes of given > system addresses, and will report the places from where they are > happening, in symbolic form. Yes, that's really a nice thing, sometimes > it even helps you to diagnose those ugly race conditions. Is that hardware or software? S/370 had PER, which among others allows a hardware interrupt for a store within a specified address range. I believe that VM supports it so one can debug an operating system running it under VM. -- glen |