The Symmetric Twin Paradox
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From: spudnik on 16 Jun 2010 22:23 there was ne'er a twin paradox, other than a tiny strawman or a pop-science effigy. 'twould be simpler to imagine the smart twin, going relativisitcly to some place ... wait ... then the other twin goes to place at the same acceleration, or less, or greater ... it's gedanken, for now, because we certainly don't have a space program in the USA (esp. not with cap&trade (search for CBOE's new IPO)). thus&so: as far as I know, there are two predominating criteria for Dark Stuff: a) the Big Bang interpretation of the redshifts; and b) only looking at gravity w.r.t. galactic rotation (or the Department of Einsteinmania, The Musical Dept. .-) thus&so: what are your figures on volcanic output -- do they produce CFCs?... well, there was a display in the meteorology dept. at UCLA about the "holes in the ozonosphere," and the main/digest poster had a distinctive and large cartoon of a volcano, but no figures. (the other, seldom-shown feature was of the data-hole of the pre- spring equinox pole .-) OK, so; why would they *not* produce CFCs, and what in any case are the known measurments? http://www.geog.ucla.edu/people/faculty.php?lid=500&display_one=1&mod... thus&so: '70s or '80s NSF meeting; Oliver "Buck" Revell (later unindicted co- conspirator in GHWB's Iran-contra) ; Tree War Assembly? thus&so: didn't notice any reply to the alleged story, "when he was an Illinois senator in 2000, he started a foundation ..." don't you guys realize, that cap&trade is the Last Bail Out of Wall Street and the City of London (financial district/ gated community/successor to the Br.E.India Co.) ?? definitively, it is not a tax, contra the WSUrinal.... have a nice night and, remember, if ultralight HDPE bags are outlawed, only outlaws & babysmotherers will have ultralight HDPE bags! Obama Creates a British Company !?!... http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2010/Climate_swindle.pdf thus&so: the models are quite believeable, even if they're fundamentally not even wrongsville; i.e. when Svente Ahrrenius didn't win a Nobel prize for his coinage of "glass house gasses," no-one bothered to model a glass house *at some lattitude not zero*.... also, look at George Simpson's table-top model of glaciation. arctic ice is floating & evanescent & cannot change sea-level; there are more polar bears than forty years ago -- bears like gahbage in Hefty HDPE take-out bags! > "If a body gives off the energy L in the form of radiation, > its mass diminishes by L/c2" -- dimensional analysis, please! thus&so: they think that photons are 0-d rocks o'light with no mass nor momentum. of course, there is nothing odd about the "symmetric twins," and there was ne'er any paradox; even less than with Russell's illiterate, tenseless ones -- I's just sayin', all Cretins be liars & me, three, now! http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008arXiv0804.2008N > "We introduce a symmetric twin paradox whose solution can not be found > within the currently accepted provinces of the STR. thus&so: there is no paradox, if you accept that there is no phenomenon, including sub-atomic angular momenta, "goes" faster than light. or, are you going to argue Ole Roemer's dyscovery of the "retardation" of light, way back, when ever -- against that? their clocks'll be in synch at the rendezvous; so, you've described a Twins Miming Each Other "experiment," a null perfection -- unlike M&M's results & their refinements. just get rid of the useless notion of Minkowski's phase-space, and you won't have to think so God-am hard about it. --Stop BP's Waxman's arbitrageurs' CAP&TRADE Last Bail-out of Wall St., the City of London, George Soros et al ad vomitorium! http://larouchepub.com --Fermat's next theorem! http://wlym.com thus&so: so that an increase in calving could be either a) just increased melting & an actual decrease of the icesheet; b) increased snowfall. however, there was no evidence of the former, when I asked about it at a conference on satellite telemetry at UCLA (knew two of the profs on the panel, one saying, "no change seen, as yet" .-) thus&so: a popular impression is that oilcos are against Kyoto and other cap&trade schemes, like Waxman's '91 bill; well, hm. urban heat islands are said to be accounted-for by the IPCC, in some kind of a fudge-factor; interesting, if true, but how accurate is it? thus&so: the Milankovitch orbital periods are probably just synchronizing, not causative; that is, only during the glacial epochs, such as the present Quaternary Period (last two million years or so .-) Dear Editor; It is apparent from the City ordinance, proposed to ban high-density polyethylene (HDPE) bags -- excepting take-out at restaurants -- that it'll be a state-wide eco-tax. The "green fee" slated is twenty- five cents for a paper bag from the retailer, grocer or farmer at the market. This is unfortunate for two reasons, although, as I stated a year ago in Council, when it first came-up, the super-light-weight, super-inexpensive bags (much less than the Staff Report figure) are so good at what they do, before they inevitably break-up and decompose (according to the apocrypha & studies of Heal the Bay etc., HDPEbagsR4ever) that coastal cities may justify a ban, to prevent stormdrain blockages. Firstly, just like with "hemp for haemarrhoids," it is not a panacea or much of an economic stop-gap, if only because "only criminals & baby-smotherers will have HDPE bags." Really, there are plenty of natural plastics; "plastic" is really an adjective, as in the plastic arts! Note also that even plant-derived plastic bags will be banned, although they are said to biodegrade. Secondly, a very small Carbon Tax would be much more realistic than Waxman's CO2 cap & trade nostrum, of letting the abitrageurs and daytraders raise the price of our energy as much as they can in the "free market" -- with no provision whatever for government revenue (contrary to the slogan of "cap & tax" used by Tea Partiers, "Republicans," and the WSUrinal). As with the much-greater amount of materiel & energy that is required for the paper bags, we might do better to ban *low* density polypropolene bags at department & boutique stores, which are many times heavier than the HDPE bags. It is surprising that a fifth of the HDPE bags are recycled, considerng that a) they're only good for garbage, if they get dirty, and b) they are quite often re-used; recycling them is an unsanitary joke, though composting might work. The retailers would get ten of the 25 cents, quite an incentive for any overhead. However, has anyone seen any analysis on the energy requirements for the "reusable" replacement, and their importation?... How about a surcharge on the super-light HDPE bags? --Sincerely, Brian H. --Stop BP's/Waxman's arbitragueur-daytripper's delight, cap&trade (Captain Tax in the feeble minds of Tea Partiers, "'republicans' R us," and the WSUrinal (and the latter just l o v e Waxman's '91 cap&trade bill !-)) http://wlym.com
From: Peter Webb on 17 Jun 2010 00:12 "colp" <colp(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote in message news:f85a3f97-74c9-4e95-b358-d1c4c8b9600c(a)s6g2000prg.googlegroups.com... On Jun 17, 1:25 pm, "Peter Webb" <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > Have you got a single experiment where SR predicts time dilation but it > does > not occur? The symmetric twin thought experiment (as described in the OP) is such an experiment. __________________________ That's not an experiment. And SR does predict a time dilation. So its hardly an experiment where SR predicts time dilation but it does not occur. When this is tested by actual experiment, the travelling twin is younger. In the experiment SR predicts that the twins will both be younger than each other when they return to Earth, which is of course impossible. ________________________ No, SR predicts the travelling twin would be younger, and this does occur. For the paradox to be resolved, each twin must observe the same amount of time compression of the other as time dilation, since the symmetry of the experiment demands that both twins are the same age when they return to Earth. __________________________ They are not symmetrical. The travelling twin changes inertial frames; the stay at home twin does not. Some solutions proposed by the relativists are: 1. Only consider one frame of reference, since SR fails when moving between inertial frames. 2. Ignore the paradox. Draw some timelines and say that everything is O.K. 3. Claim that the time dilation will be compensated for by acceleration, even though there is no experimental support for time compression arising from acceleration. 4. Feet stamping and name calling. __________________________ No. Why don't you quote what some reputable textbook on SR actually says, if you disagree with it. In the mean time, have you got a single experiment where relativity predicts time dilation but it does not occur? No?
From: Koobee Wublee on 17 Jun 2010 00:25 On Jun 16, 6:19 pm, "Peter Webb" wrote: > Koobee Wublee wrote: > > GPS will function without any GR effect applied if indeed exists. You > > can google the previous few posts by yours truly to understand how GPS > > works. <shrug> > > That's funny. Are you claiming that the GPS system does NOT compensate for > relativistic effects, and that the builders and designers of the system are > lying about the mathematics they use? I am saying the GPS will function fine with compensating for relativistic effect if it really does exist. The critical path is to synchronize the chronological time (time count) and not the clock driving these time counters among all the satellites. The ground system can have its own clock and its own chronological time count different from the satellite. The Einstein Dingleberry Dirk van de moortel used to post about how the GPS actually works without such clock synchronization, you can also google for yours truly's recent past posts, or just go to Androcles' website. <shrug> Again, it is not the clock that needs to be synchronized but the timer that accumulates the chronological time that does so. The GPS engineers did not lie about anything. It is perpetrated by the self-styled physicists aka Einstein Dingleberries who do not understand how the system actually works started the whole myth about the implementation of the effects of GR in the GPS. It is a total lie. <shrug>
From: colp on 17 Jun 2010 00:54 On Jun 17, 4:12 pm, "Peter Webb" <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > "colp" <c...(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote in message > > news:f85a3f97-74c9-4e95-b358-d1c4c8b9600c(a)s6g2000prg.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 17, 1:25 pm, "Peter Webb" > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > Have you got a single experiment where SR predicts time dilation but it > > does > > not occur? > > The symmetric twin thought experiment (as described in the OP) is such > an experiment. > > __________________________ > That's not an experiment. Wrong. A thought experiment is a type of experiment. > And SR does predict a time dilation. Absolutely. > So its hardly > an experiment where SR predicts time dilation but it does not occur. Wrong again. The point of an experiment is to test a hypothesis. Whether the test is conducted with physical apparatus or simply with reason is unimportant. > When > this is tested by actual experiment, the travelling twin is younger. In the symmetric paradox that I spoke of in my previous post, both twins travel and they are the same age, despite the predictions of SR. I'm not going to argue about the classic paradox because the paradox is much easier to show in the symmetric case.
From: Paul Cardinale on 17 Jun 2010 01:10
A person of normal intelligence who diligently studies relativity will be able to understand the resolution of the twin paradox. That excludes you. |