Twins Paradox doesn't add up with light
in [Relativity]
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From: Darwin123 on 19 May 2010 15:59 On May 19, 12:00 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: > "Darwin123" <drosen0...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:dec648e9-dee6-4500-8362-fb7d0aabc436(a)f14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com... > The most definitive is a beautiful > experiment performed at CERN, Geneva, Switzerland, in 1964.* The speed > of time > > Ok, so it's beautiful, but what's "the speed of time", drosen? Sorry, the "of time" was my typographical error. I don't have a scanner so I have to type out the pragraphs. I made a slip. It is merely the speed of the "6 GeV photons". The speed of the 6 GeV pions were 0.99975 c. They emitted photons. The speed of the pions did not add to the speed of the photons. This was not an interferometry experiment, like the MMX. This was all done by timing photon events directly. If you pick on my typos, you will be indicating that you don't want to address the scientific fact that c'=c. The speed of light is independent of the source to a very high degree. This is different from those other experiments that involved MMX with starlight from binaries. The light did not have to travel through miles of air to get to the mirrors. Here is the quotation with the "of time" removed. It would help if you bought a copy of Jackson :-) I suggest that you find the original articles. "There are, however, some more recent experiments that do not suffer from the criticism of Fox. The most definitive is a beautiful experiment performed at CERN, Geneva, Switzerland, in 1964.* The speed of 6 GeV photons produced in the decay of very energetic neutral pions was measured by the time of flight over paths up to 80 meters. The pions were produced by bombardment of a beryllium target by 19.2 GeV protons and had speeds (inferred from meassured speeds of charged photons produced in the same bombardment of 0.99975c. The timing was done by utilizing the rf structure of the beam. Within experimental error it was found that the speed of the photons emitted by the rapidly moving source was equal to c. If the observed speed is written as c'=c+kv, where v is the speed of the source, the experiment showed that k=(0+-1.3)x10^-4. *T. Alvager, J. M. Bailey,et al. Phys. Lett. 12, 260 (1964); Ark. Fys. 31, 145 (1965)."
From: Androcles on 19 May 2010 16:21 "Darwin123" <drosen0000(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:00677df5-e6fd-4805-ae0f-7200db9d530c(a)s41g2000vba.googlegroups.com... On May 19, 12:00 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: > "Darwin123" <drosen0...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:dec648e9-dee6-4500-8362-fb7d0aabc436(a)f14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com... > The most definitive is a beautiful > experiment performed at CERN, Geneva, Switzerland, in 1964.* The speed > of time > > Ok, so it's beautiful, but what's "the speed of time", drosen? Sorry, the "of time" was my typographical error. I don't have a scanner so I have to type out the pragraphs. I made a slip. It is merely the speed of the "6 GeV photons". ========================================== Ok... "The pions were produced by bombardment of a beryllium target" What is the beautiful speed of beautiful radiation inside beautiful beryllium blocks? Or to put it another way, what is the speed of beautiful sound from a beautiful rotating gramophone record? What happens if you speed up the beautiful record from 33 RPM to 78 RPM? Does that change the beautiful speed of sound? You should be fuckin' sorry, trying to bullshit me.
From: Darwin123 on 19 May 2010 17:06 On May 19, 4:21 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: > "Darwin123" <drosen0...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:00677df5-e6fd-4805-ae0f-7200db9d530c(a)s41g2000vba.googlegroups.com... > On May 19, 12:00 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> > wrote:> "Darwin123" <drosen0...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > > >news:dec648e9-dee6-4500-8362-fb7d0aabc436(a)f14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com.... > > The most definitive is a beautiful > > experiment performed at CERN, Geneva, Switzerland, in 1964.* The speed > > of time > > > Ok, so it's beautiful, but what's "the speed of time", drosen? > > Sorry, the "of time" was my typographical error. I don't have a > scanner so I have to type out the pragraphs. I made a slip. It is > merely the speed of the "6 GeV photons". > ========================================== > Ok... > > "The pions were produced by bombardment of a beryllium target" > > What is the beautiful speed of beautiful radiation inside beautiful > beryllium blocks? I don't think they use blocks. Physicists usually use thin foil, precisely to minimize the effect of delays like you describe. I don't know if foil was used in this experiment. You should check. It really doesn't matter. They know when the protons hit the block. That is why they use the rf modulation. They monitor the charged pions generated when protons hit the beryllium. That is how they know the speed of the pions. They know exactly where the pulse of pions is at any time. So they know to measure photons emitted by the pions AFTER the pions have left the beryllium target. There is no way to know the speed of the pions inside the beryllium. The measurements of pion speed where performed outside the beryllium target. If this experiment were to be done exactly right, a baffle had to be placed blocking light coming directly from the berylium. I suspect there was some sort of telescope arrangement, so they selected light coming from separate points on the pion beam. That was the only way they could have measured the speed of light from the pions. I worked for a while in an accelerator lab. I know they were concerned about delays in the target. If you think the workers at CERN are sloppy, you should check into it. I would love to think that the scientists at CERN are less careful than the scientists in, say, Brooklyn College. These are not photons emitted by the beryllium, these are photons being emitted by pions that have already left the beryllium target. If you can think of a way that a delay inside the beryllium can effect the measured speed of light for pion source outside the beryllium, please let us know. > > Or to put it another way, what is the speed of beautiful sound from > a beautiful rotating gramophone record? What happens if you speed > up the beautiful record from 33 RPM to 78 RPM? The rf oscillation of the protons set the "speed" of the pion measurement. The frequency of the oscillation is set by the frequency of oscillation of the protons. >Does that change > the beautiful speed of sound? No it doesn't. However, this is a different "speed". Different units. The scientists at CERN were measuring speed of light, in units of length divided by time. The speed of oscillation is set by the frequency of the proton beam, which would be in Hertz (i.e., inverse seconds). Your connecting "speed of a record player" with "speed of sound" sounds very stupid. Obviously, the rf frequency is not the speed of light. Any more than the rpm is the speed of sound. Note: I did not make that connection. If I wanted to measure the speed of sound with a record player, I would place microphones at different distances from the loudspeaker. I would use a dual trace oscilloscope to measure the waveforms at different distances, using the record player output itself as the trigger. I would then measure the phase difference between the different microphones that were far from the record player. This is the acoustic analog to the CERN experiment. > You should be fuckin' sorry, trying to bullshit me. You should be sorry, trying to bullshit the rest of us. For more than ten years. The CERN experiment shows that Einstein's second postulate is right. If you think CERN made mistakes, go find the details yourself.
From: Androcles on 19 May 2010 17:14 "Darwin123" <drosen0000(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:b93ca8e1-c320-4220-8574-e9deb9c541d1(a)d12g2000vbr.googlegroups.com... On May 19, 4:21 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: > "Darwin123" <drosen0...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:00677df5-e6fd-4805-ae0f-7200db9d530c(a)s41g2000vba.googlegroups.com... > On May 19, 12:00 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> > wrote:> "Darwin123" <drosen0...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > > >news:dec648e9-dee6-4500-8362-fb7d0aabc436(a)f14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com... > > The most definitive is a beautiful > > experiment performed at CERN, Geneva, Switzerland, in 1964.* The speed > > of time > > > Ok, so it's beautiful, but what's "the speed of time", drosen? > > Sorry, the "of time" was my typographical error. I don't have a > scanner so I have to type out the pragraphs. I made a slip. It is > merely the speed of the "6 GeV photons". > ========================================== > Ok... > > "The pions were produced by bombardment of a beryllium target" > > What is the beautiful speed of beautiful radiation inside beautiful > beryllium blocks? I don't think ==================================== Of course you don't. Who accused you of thinking? Certainly not I. > they use blocks. >Physicists usually use thin foil, ============================================= That has width, height and depth. It's a block to a pion. What is the beautiful speed of beautiful radiation inside beautiful beryllium blocks? Don't try to bullshit beautiful me, ugly you.
From: Darwin123 on 19 May 2010 22:43
On May 19, 5:14 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: > "Darwin123" <drosen0...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:b93ca8e1-c320-4220-8574-e9deb9c541d1(a)d12g2000vbr.googlegroups.com... > On May 19, 4:21 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: > > > "Darwin123" <drosen0...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > > >news:00677df5-e6fd-4805-ae0f-7200db9d530c(a)s41g2000vba.googlegroups.com.... > > On May 19, 12:00 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> > > wrote:> "Darwin123" <drosen0...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > >news:dec648e9-dee6-4500-8362-fb7d0aabc436(a)f14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com.... > > > The most definitive is a beautiful > > > experiment performed at CERN, Geneva, Switzerland, in 1964.* The speed > > > of time > > > > Ok, so it's beautiful, but what's "the speed of time", drosen? > > > Sorry, the "of time" was my typographical error. I don't have a > > scanner so I have to type out the pragraphs. I made a slip. It is > > merely the speed of the "6 GeV photons". > > ========================================== > > Ok... > > > "The pions were produced by bombardment of a beryllium target" > > > What is the beautiful speed of beautiful radiation inside beautiful > > beryllium blocks? > > I don't think > > ==================================== > Of course you don't. Who accused you of thinking? Certainly not I. > > > they use blocks. > >Physicists usually use thin foil, > > ============================================= > That has width, height and depth. It's a block to a pion. The path length was up to 80 meters. Therefore, some of the pions were up to 89 meters outside the beryllium target. The photons are emitted by a neutral pion after the pion has left the beryllium target. The speed of both light and pions were measured in a vacuum over path lengths up to 80 meters. > > What is the beautiful speed of beautiful radiation inside beautiful > beryllium blocks? Unless the photon detectors fit inside the target, it doesn't matter. The photons were emitted from a pion beam path of up to 80 meters. That is 80 meters in a vacuum. > Don't try to bullshit beautiful me, ugly you. You signifying monkey. It doesn't matter how fast either pion or photon were moving inside the beryllium. It doesn't even matter how thick the beryllium target is. All measurements were taken outside the beryllium. The pions were the source of photons. The pions were outside the beryllium when the photons were emitted. The photons traveled from pion to detector in a vacuum. Hence they are talking about the speed of light in a vacuum. The photons traveled their entire life, from beginning to end, in a vacuum. Not beryllium, not water, and not air. In a vacuum. The photons are emitted in different places along the pion beam. The pions are the source of photons, not the beryllium. The beryllium target. is standing still. You are asking a ridiculour question. Its like asking how fast the horse was going in its stable before the race. It doesn't matter. No one clocks the horse in its home stable, in its own stall. The measurements for the race are taken outside the stable. The horse runs around the track, not inside the stable. So got that. The source of photons is outside the target. It source of photons is the pions, not the beryllium. The pions are moving at a speed equal to 0.99975c in the inertial frame of the photon detectors. |