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From: Mark Draheim on 13 Jul 2010 13:55
mjt wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:14:47 +0200
> Mark Draheim <rickcafe.casablanca(a)gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> There is a better and less invasive way to get any ISO to boot from
>> USB Sticks. I wonder why this is still not in the SuSE wikis.
>>
>> Get this one
>> http://www.pendrivelinux.com/downloads/MultiBootISOs/MultiBootISOs-
>>
>> It's Windows based tool
>
> That's "better and less invasive"???
>
> And what if the person doesn't have a M$ OS?

errm, then do it in Linux. All the tool does is put syslinux on the
stick together with a pre-defined config. You can do the same in
Linux. And since you're so eager to avoid Windows, go ahead and make a
QT, TK, mono, or whatever wrapper around syslinux to get the same
functionality. The point is to *not* use dd with all its drawbacks.

It's supposed to help folks that do not yet have Linux. If you read
the SuSE wiki page on USB sticks, you'll see that they actually advise
downloading *win32* dd and other stuff.

So, last time I advised someone to use the Windows tool was when a
customer wanted to test a Linux Terminal Client distribution. Of
course they had no Linux ready to put the iso on usb or disk. After
all, they wanted terminal clients to connect to a Windows server.
Should I run them through a full Linux installation on the phone just
to get the iso to boot from disk?

> Personally, I wouldn't resort to a Windows-based
> tool to do something Linux-based.

Suits me fine.

Cheers

Mark




From: Günther Schwarz on 13 Jul 2010 14:00
mjt wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:14:47 +0200
> Mark Draheim <rickcafe.casablanca(a)gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> There is a better and less invasive way to get any ISO to boot from USB
>> Sticks. I wonder why this is still not in the SuSE wikis.
>>
>> Get this one
>> http://www.pendrivelinux.com/downloads/MultiBootISOs/MultiBootISOs-
>>
>> It's Windows based tool
>
> That's "better and less invasive"???
>
> And what if the person doesn't have a M$ OS? Personally, I wouldn't
> resort to a Windows-based tool to do something Linux-based.

Take Unetbootin (stat. linked LSB executable) instead:
http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/

With this and a network installation of SUSE the smallest stick available
should be just fine.

Günther
From: Justin on 13 Jul 2010 18:35
In article <8a3nteFn6nU1(a)mid.individual.net>,
Günther Schwarz <strap(a)gmx.de> wrote:

> mjt wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:14:47 +0200
> > Mark Draheim <rickcafe.casablanca(a)gmx.net> wrote:
> >
> >> There is a better and less invasive way to get any ISO to boot from USB
> >> Sticks. I wonder why this is still not in the SuSE wikis.
> >>
> >> Get this one
> >> http://www.pendrivelinux.com/downloads/MultiBootISOs/MultiBootISOs-
> >>
> >> It's Windows based tool
> >
> > That's "better and less invasive"???
> >
> > And what if the person doesn't have a M$ OS? Personally, I wouldn't
> > resort to a Windows-based tool to do something Linux-based.
>
> Take Unetbootin (stat. linked LSB executable) instead:
> http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/
>
> With this and a network installation of SUSE the smallest stick available
> should be just fine.
>
> Günther

I just tried using that, and with a 4GB stick it ran out of space. I'll
order an 8G stick at some point.
From: Mark Draheim on 14 Jul 2010 03:21
houghi wrote:

> Mark Draheim wrote:

>> - no partitioning needed, just copy the iso to the stick
>
> That is what dd does.
>
>> - no space wasted due to dd overwriting partition tables
>
> That is what dd does. They use a bash script, but you can easily do
> the thing by just typing in the commands line by line. e.g. if the
> USB key is /dev/sdg:
> fdisk /dev/sdg
> n
> p
> 2
> <enter>
> <enter>
> t
> 2
> 83
> w
> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdg2 bs=4K count-2

yes, but what about the "no partitioning needed"? Okay, if the stick
actually has no partitions, then it makes sense to create one. But
then, if you use dd, then the partitioning step is not necessary
unless you want to avoid wasting space...

>> - no destroying system partitions due to bad dd commands
>
> That is interesting.
>
>> - multiple isos on same stick possible
>
> That is interesting
>
>> Cons:
>>
>> - no noob-compatible docs, need 10 minutes on Google to understand
>> the workings of iso-/syslinux
>
> That is extremely con. Especially as it is a a Windows based system,
> so most likely people who have no experience with this sort of stuff
> will find it difficult

huh? Copy iso to stick, start exe, choose stick drive letter, edit
first section in conf to point at the iso, done. Really, how hard is
that? The noob actually has to type less than with the dd commands.
Plus, telling noobs to use dd is like telling a 3-year-old to go
fishing with dynamite. Sure it works but there's a good chance that
the thing will blow up in their face.

>> Of course, since this approach is based on syslinux, you can do all
>> this in Linux, too. It's just a matter of setting up syslinux on
>> your stick.
>
> As is what is described on the Linux version of the command above.

The thing is, you can use the tool to boot any bootable iso without
extracting it or using low level commands like fdisk and dd. This is a
good thing for noobs.

And if you're no noob anymore, it is still a nice thing to have. I
discovered the tool when I wanted to put Knoppix on a stick without
wasting space or partitioning. All docs referred to dd or, at best, to
extracting the iso. This is overly complicated since you can boot the
iso file itself. And yes, I could do that in Linux. Actually, it would
take me longer to reboot and use the tool, than to zypper syslinux and
type away.

Cheers

Mark

From: Mark Draheim on 14 Jul 2010 04:36
houghi wrote:

> Mark Draheim wrote:
>> Plus, telling noobs to use dd is like telling a 3-year-old to go
>> fishing with dynamite. Sure it works but there's a good chance that
>> the thing will blow up in their face.
>
> Well, that is how people learn. I do not understand the complete and
> utter obsession of protection the noob from making any mistakes.
> Please let him make mistakes, that is how people learn since
> millions of years.

hehe, I once fried my sda1 with dd (luckily it was the windows
partition) because of the change from hda1 to sda1. I wanted to blank
the USB stick which used to be sda and but then was sdg or something.

I work in IT consulting (mostly open source software for that matter)
and time is money. If the customer makes an error because I told him
or her to do something without re-re-re-checking thrice that the
command entered is indeed correct (people cannot even copy and paste),
then I will have to work overtime without getting paid. So, I tell
them to use whatever gets the job done and has the least chance of
breaking something because of user error.

I get paid by counts of tasks completed and issues solved, not by how
many users I converted to Linux or how many noobs I educated to not
blow their hands off with commands they cannot possibly understand at
this time. If a teacher hurls my child into a 10-feet-deep pool
telling me that this is the fastest way to learn swimming, then he's
fired.

Cheers

Mark

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