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From: mdr1024 on 19 Oct 2006 12:59

Does HP even have anything resembling an upgrade strategy for their RPL
series calculators, or might it not be entirely far-fetched to assume
that the 50G is the last nail in the coffin?

It is obvious that HP dropped the ball when TI was working on the
original TI-92. Are they going to do the same now that TI is working on
the Nspire?

TI (wisely) decided to drop the Z80 processor on its high-end
calculators, while still providing marginal upgrades to the Z80's (ie,
TI-83, TI-86) while they worked on switching to a new architecture
(M68K), which provided cash flow to offset the R&D costs for the M68K
series.

TI knew that a new architecture would void all past programs, but
decided to go ahead with it anyway (they needed to).

HP decided to emulate the Saturn on ARM, but are they working on a
native ARM ROM? This needs to be done, in spite of compatibility
concerns, or else they will be far behind the competition.

Just look at TI's bid specs on the Nspire:

More than 6 times the processor speed of TI-89 Titanium (Still M68K?)
16 Mb of Computing Memory (~85 times TI-89 Titanium)
~20 Mb of Storage Memory (~7 times TI-89 Titanium)
320x240 pixel gray-scale display (nearly 5X resolution of TI-89
Titanium)

Now, HP already has SD Card support, so they can already outdo TI in
the storage area. Personally, I am disappointed at the lack of SD card
support in TI, but I realize that they are doing it to force people to
buy minor "upgrades" like the TI-89 Titanium for top dollar.

Some of us TI users are disappointed at these maneuvers and other TI
nonsense like changing the keyboard layout on the TI-89T to make it
more curved and look more space-age.

In some respects, TI is forgetting its power user base (the ones who
pushed/forced assembly support on them, for example), and this is a
golden opportunity for HP to step in. In the past, TI made some
calculators for power users (TI-85/86), and "dumbed-down" versions
(TI-82/83/84) for the middle school crowd, but the target audience for
Nspire seems to be everyone (power user or not).

In other respects, though, TI seems to have learned that the advanced
users (programmers) are the ones that write the enhancements and, yes,
the games, that, from the perspective of non-power users, enhance the
calculator, and therefore increase sales.

This is why they finally gave up not only added assembly support, but
also provided a compiler (TI-GCC).

HP, on the other hand, seems to be riding a turbo-charged dead horse by
staying with the Saturn ROM. Native ARM would be a nice architecture
for a 50G replacement, especially if they cranked up the speed and
memory subsystem to handle a higher CPU clock rate.

TI will probably release Nspire in a year. Is HP, the same company who
once made a handheld calculator that in many respects exceeded the
precision of most mainframe computers at the time, going to let itself
be made irrelevant.

HP has the resources and the history behind them to produce something
much better than what the competition does, but are they willing to?
Are they willing to release prototypes (perhaps as PC emulators) to the
HP user community so that they can get feedback PRIOR to release on
what works and what doesn't, what the users, and not the marketers,
want?

People will be watching...

- Marco

Yao Konan wrote:
> Ok its seems clearer.
> With the announced TI-NSpire specs,it is clear that soon or late HP
> will have to go toward those levels of hardware specs if they don't
> want to be completely outdated.
> Even if 128 MB seems a bit excessive for a student calculator.I would
> rather see 64 MB of RAM if WinCE is the OS and more likely less if a
> more efficient OS is used.
> Though in a few years even those specs would seem low,wouldn't they ?
>
> Veli-Pekka Nousiainen wrote:
> > Yao Konan wrote:
> > X
> > >> Basic 128K ROM+128K RAM + SDIO system for students
> > >> AND
> > >> a more versatile Phone Edition 256K +256K + SDIO + CFII
> > >> with GPS WLAN BluTooth etc., - for professionals
> > >
> > > I don't understand those 2 configurations above.
> > > Are you meaning that real calculators would have those specs or that
> > > the emulated calculator will show those specs to the user ?
> > > Because 128 KB/256 KB of RAM seems very small for a graphing
> > > calculator especially after having removed the limitations of SATURN.
> > > The Casio fx-9860 G SD for example,has 512 KB of RAM(with 64 KB of
> > > user RAM),1.5 MB of user flash,a SD slot and the classpad CPU and it
> > > is supposed to compete with the TI84+ !!!
> >
> > )(/&%("!/ยค&=)(/ Oh brother...
> > My bad: it should be MB instead of calculator KB
> > The main idea is to speed things up 10 [ * ] and memory 1000 [ * ]
> >
> > >> Both shouls have a thumping qwerty keyboard that is redefinable
> > >> optional keyboard overlays will help
> > >> --
> > >> Veli-Pekka

From: John H Meyers on 19 Oct 2006 14:09
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:59:08 -0500, Marco wrote:

> Native ARM would be a nice architecture for a 50G replacement

How about native ARM being supported side by side with
the Saturn emulator on the 50G, as some HPGCC folks
have been suggesting (and appear to be working at)?

> especially if they cranked up the speed and
> memory subsystem to handle a higher CPU clock rate.

HPGCC people have usually replied that their blazing fast
accomplishments are so good that they have no need
to turn up the juice or drain power any faster.

"Something completely different" would of course
be less boring, though :)

[r->] [OFF]
From: mdr1024 on 19 Oct 2006 14:56

John H Meyers wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:59:08 -0500, Marco wrote:
>
> > Native ARM would be a nice architecture for a 50G replacement
>
> How about native ARM being supported side by side with
> the Saturn emulator on the 50G, as some HPGCC folks
> have been suggesting (and appear to be working at)?

Could work for assembly applications that don't rely on the operating
system, but I wonder how they would reconcile access to newer
functions.

> > especially if they cranked up the speed and
> > memory subsystem to handle a higher CPU clock rate.
>
> HPGCC people have usually replied that their blazing fast
> accomplishments are so good that they have no need
> to turn up the juice or drain power any faster.

Precisely why I bought the 50G, but the CAS/RPL on emulation is bloody
slow compared to what it could run at natively.

I suppose it would be truly wishful thinking to expect HP to release a
future ARM-ROM for the current 50G and let everyone "upgrade" for free,
but if they did, that would certainly cement many users' brand loyalty.

> "Something completely different" would of course
> be less boring, though :)
>
> [r->] [OFF]

From: TW on 19 Oct 2006 16:59
> I suppose it would be truly wishful thinking to expect HP to release a
> future ARM-ROM for the current 50G and let everyone "upgrade" for free,
> but if they did, that would certainly cement many users' brand loyalty.

I can pretty much guarentee there will never be a fully ARM 50G OS
released by HP. First, there probably isn't enought flash to make an
ARM OS that contains all the features of the current ROM. ARM code
will be much less compact compared to the saturn. Second, it would
cost too much to do anyway.

I'd much rather see a completely new OS on a new system. The current
OS code has been taken so far already it is hard to extend even more.

TW

From: Yao Konan on 20 Oct 2006 07:25
Hi,

> Does HP even have anything resembling an upgrade strategy for their RPL
> series calculators, or might it not be entirely far-fetched to assume
> that the 50G is the last nail in the coffin?

One can wonder effectively as the HP50G is essentially a fixed HP49G+
with almost none significant improvement.

> It is obvious that HP dropped the ball when TI was working on the
> original TI-92. Are they going to do the same now that TI is working on
> the Nspire?

I wouldn't say so as HP wouldn't mind release the HP50G if it was the
case but only the future will tell.


> TI (wisely) decided to drop the Z80 processor on its high-end
> calculators, while still providing marginal upgrades to the Z80's (ie,
> TI-83, TI-86) while they worked on switching to a new architecture
> (M68K), which provided cash flow to offset the R&D costs for the M68K
> series.

This is what HP should have done but they didn't.
Even if i was quite happy at the time of HP49G and even i am still
impressed by the power of its software,i must admit that it was a
tragic error to have kept the same architecture for the high end
calculators series.
I think it was possible to design a machine using an emulator at the
time of the HP49G which even if it wouldn't have been as fast as the
HP49G+(because of a less powerful CPU for battery life and because of a
less optimised emulator as i am sure that the HP49G+/HP50G emulator has
been written by hydryx thus ex-members of the ACO) would have been a
significantly better offer than the HP49G.
So with enough ressources and time put in developpement HP could have
already released an equivalent of the HP49G+ perhaps one year after the
time they release the HP49G.
However i think that even this solution wasn't the best one.
The best one would have been to start,when HP created the ACO,working
on machines using a new OS and a new hardware architecture.
If the ACO was able to design Xpander than they had certainly the
ressources to design a powerful replacement for the HP48G series based
on a new hardware architecture or am i wrong ?
In the same time HP could have released a HP39G with much more
optimised and partially rewritten software and especially FLASH ROM to
have a much better competitor for the TI83+ and use to get as much
money as possible on this quite lucrative segment of the market.
I have never understood why the HP39G didn't have Flash ROM even if it
would have meant less RAM.
One can't seriously compete with the leader of market while lacking one
of its most powerful features:Flash technology.

> TI knew that a new architecture would void all past programs, but
> decided to go ahead with it anyway (they needed to).

Note,that they could have tried to use a more powerful CPU of the Zilog
Z80 series though that would have leaded them soon or late to a dead
end like HP.

> HP decided to emulate the Saturn on ARM, but are they working on a
> native ARM ROM? This needs to be done, in spite of compatibility
> concerns, or else they will be far behind the competition.

I seriously doubt that HP is working on a native ARM ROM,otherwise they
would have certainly delay HP50G to release a calculator with this
ROM,thus releasing a definitevily much more powerful calculator which
would have blown away anything TI or Casio could release in a close
future.
Off course it is still possible that they want to earn money by selling
HP50G to those who just need a fixed HP49G+ while working on such
product(wishful thinking).

> Just look at TI's bid specs on the Nspire:
>
> More than 6 times the processor speed of TI-89 Titanium (Still M68K?)
> 16 Mb of Computing Memory (~85 times TI-89 Titanium)
> ~20 Mb of Storage Memory (~7 times TI-89 Titanium)
> 320x240 pixel gray-scale display (nearly 5X resolution of TI-89
> Titanium)

>From tests on a prototype it even seems that the TI-NSpire is over 10
times faster than a TI89Titanium.

> Now, HP already has SD Card support, so they can already outdo TI in
> the storage area.

Yes off course but there is an area where HP can't outdo TI or Casio,it
is the computing memory area.
With 16 MB of RAM for the NSpire and a total of 8 MB rumored for the
ClassPad(Which is btw programmable in C++),the HP50G will have a hard
time to compete if developpers start to write serious applications for
these platforms.

>Personally, I am disappointed at the lack of SD card
> support in TI, but I realize that they are doing it to force people to
> buy minor "upgrades" like the TI-89 Titanium for top dollar.
> Some of us TI users are disappointed at these maneuvers and other TI
> nonsense like changing the keyboard layout on the TI-89T to make it
> more curved and look more space-age.

I have been very disapointed and upset by these practices and this is
one reason i haven't bought a TI calculator since the TI92+.
I think that i could have bought the V200 if it has a least more RAM,a
better memory management and faster CPU (or at least much faster
software in critical areas).
It is sad to see that HP is following TI steps with the HP50G series
wich is after 3 years a barely improved and fixed HP49G+ and this is
why i won't buy a HP calculator before they release something really
new.

> In some respects, TI is forgetting its power user base (the ones who
> pushed/forced assembly support on them, for example), and this is a
> golden opportunity for HP to step in. In the past, TI made some
> calculators for power users (TI-85/86), and "dumbed-down" versions
> (TI-82/83/84) for the middle school crowd, but the target audience for
> Nspire seems to be everyone (power user or not).

I am not sure about this aspect as TI rumored plan to can Derive and
replace it and other applications by the TI-NSpire could lead to the
release of either a very powerful TI-NSpire handheld or two versions of
the TI-NSpire handhelds with the most powerful one perfectly suited for
power users.


> HP, on the other hand, seems to be riding a turbo-charged dead horse by
> staying with the Saturn ROM. Native ARM would be a nice architecture
> for a 50G replacement, especially if they cranked up the speed and
> memory subsystem to handle a higher CPU clock rate.

I somehow doubt that this will happen but who know ?

> TI will probably release Nspire in a year. Is HP, the same company who
> once made a handheld calculator that in many respects exceeded the
>
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