What are they shredding??
in [Design]
|
Prev: LT Spice ideal diode
Next: The Flux Capacitor!
From: krw on 6 Apr 2010 21:13 On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 23:30:43 +0000 (UTC), don(a)manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote: >In <8ddmr5tjm10h9uanra5c7h1ecc9bnjbpba(a)4ax.com>, J. KK said (edit. for space) >>4/4/10 22:04:18 +02, "Helmut Sennewald" <helmutsennewald(a)t-online.de> wrote: >> >>>"Bert Hickman" <bert-hickman(a)comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >>>news:uKydnU-lqqYOKSXWnZ2dnUVZ_rydnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>>> OK - what the heck are they shredding here?? >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6yOk7Jt7c >>> >>>I guess it was magnesium (alloy). >> >>No, that would not have ceased burning. More likely an iron alloy with >>Lanthanide rare earth content, maybe Lutetium. > > I have read that "flints" in lighters and torch ignitors are made of >ferrocerium, an iron-cerium alloy. > > Maybe those rcklike metal chunks are a titanium alloy. I have heard >that titanium was used in many popular smaller flashbulbs back when >cameras used smaller flashbulbs, flashbars and flashcubes. I thought flashbulbs used magnesium.
From: Don Klipstein on 6 Apr 2010 22:54 In <0vmnr5tuhakfnecquois212vmf9o2um0m4(a)4ax.com>, krw(a)att.bizzzzzzz wrote: >On 6 Apr 2010 23:30:43 +0 UTC, don(a)manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote: > >>In <8ddmr5tjm10h9uanra5c7h1ecc9bnjbpba(a)4ax.com>, J. KK said (edit. for space) >>>4/4/10 22:04:18 +02, "Helmut Sennewald" <helmutsennewald(a)t-online.de> wrote: >>> >>>>"Bert Hickman" <bert-hickman(a)comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >>>>news:uKydnU-lqqYOKSXWnZ2dnUVZ_rydnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>>>> OK - what the heck are they shredding here?? >>>>> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6yOk7Jt7c >>>> >>>>I guess it was magnesium (alloy). >>> >>>No, that would not have ceased burning. More likely an iron alloy with >>>Lanthanide rare earth content, maybe Lutetium. >> >> I have read that "flints" in lighters and torch ignitors are made of >>ferrocerium, an iron-cerium alloy. >> >> Maybe those rcklike metal chunks are a titanium alloy. I have heard >>that titanium was used in many popular smaller flashbulbs back when >>cameras used smaller flashbulbs, flashbars and flashcubes. > >I thought flashbulbs used magnesium. I do remember reading a lot of sources around 30 or more years ago, especially encyclopedias, saying magnesium. I have heard aluminum and titanium to a lesser extent. (See below - I may be incorrectly remembering mention of titanium, it is starting to look to me more like zirconium, one square down from titanium in the periodic table.) I have also opened up a fair number of flashbulbs of different brands and at least 4 sizes, plus the ones in flashcubes and flashbars. So far in my experience, I have yet to find magnesium in any of them. The metal was always in my experience either aluminum or something denser and grayer in color than aluminum or magnesium, and when burned in atmospheric air burned in a way closer to that of steel wool (including color temperature) than magnesium does, although faster and hotter than steel wool. I cannot be certain what that metal was, but it does appear to me to fit the description of titanium. One thing that I cannot rule out is either or both of these metals being alloyed to reduce heat conduction to make them easier to ignite. It appears to me that flashbulbs were more likely to use aluminum if they were larger, moderately older designs, and later small ones were more likely to use the denser grayish metal that may be titanium. Meanwhile, the "aluminum wool" used in many flashbulbs, in my experience, usually cannot be ignited in atmospheric air by a flame (protective oxide thickens first), but can be ignited by a neon sign transformer. That is why I think it was aluminum and not magnesium. Aluminum can be made to burn like magnesium does, but not as easily most of the time due to greater heat conductivity and its tendency to form a shielding oxide if it takes more than some fraction of a second to heat it up to its ignition temperature. The denser, more grayish metal that may be "titanium wool" in my experience is easy to ignite in atmospheric air with a flame. Wikipedia says magnesium was used earlier and zirconium was used later. That means I may have been incorrect to have mentioned titanium. I just tried Google - a quickie look is appearing to me to support zirconium over titanium although a US patent mentions titanium, zirconium, magnesium and aluminum - as well as potassium perchlorate and nitrocellulose. (Cover as many bases as possible?) Trying Google for flahbulb aluminum - I am finding support for what apears to me to be "aluminum wool" to be a magnesium-aluminum alloy. One cite caught my attention: http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/1249/ Twentieth-Century-Photographic-Lighting.html That one mentions use of aluminum-magnesium alloy, 92-93% Al, 7-8% Mg. This probably explains why I thought it was aluminum. - Don Klipstein (don(a)misty.com)
From: JosephKK on 6 Apr 2010 23:45 On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 20:13:00 -0500, "krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote: >On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 23:30:43 +0000 (UTC), don(a)manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) >wrote: > >>In <8ddmr5tjm10h9uanra5c7h1ecc9bnjbpba(a)4ax.com>, J. KK said (edit. for space) >>>4/4/10 22:04:18 +02, "Helmut Sennewald" <helmutsennewald(a)t-online.de> wrote: >>> >>>>"Bert Hickman" <bert-hickman(a)comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >>>>news:uKydnU-lqqYOKSXWnZ2dnUVZ_rydnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>>>> OK - what the heck are they shredding here?? >>>>> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6yOk7Jt7c >>>> >>>>I guess it was magnesium (alloy). >>> >>>No, that would not have ceased burning. More likely an iron alloy with >>>Lanthanide rare earth content, maybe Lutetium. >> >> I have read that "flints" in lighters and torch ignitors are made of >>ferrocerium, an iron-cerium alloy. >> >> Maybe those rcklike metal chunks are a titanium alloy. I have heard >>that titanium was used in many popular smaller flashbulbs back when >>cameras used smaller flashbulbs, flashbars and flashcubes. > >I thought flashbulbs used magnesium. Most of them did. This is the first i have ever heard of using titanium in a flash bulb. I want to see some documentation before i buy off on it. The reaction chemistry is just is not right.
From: JosephKK on 7 Apr 2010 22:46 On Wed, 7 Apr 2010 02:54:24 +0000 (UTC), don(a)manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote: >In <0vmnr5tuhakfnecquois212vmf9o2um0m4(a)4ax.com>, krw(a)att.bizzzzzzz wrote: >>On 6 Apr 2010 23:30:43 +0 UTC, don(a)manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote: >> >>>In <8ddmr5tjm10h9uanra5c7h1ecc9bnjbpba(a)4ax.com>, J. KK said (edit. for space) >>>>4/4/10 22:04:18 +02, "Helmut Sennewald" <helmutsennewald(a)t-online.de> wrote: >>>> >>>>>"Bert Hickman" <bert-hickman(a)comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >>>>>news:uKydnU-lqqYOKSXWnZ2dnUVZ_rydnZ2d(a)giganews.com... >>>>>> OK - what the heck are they shredding here?? >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6yOk7Jt7c >>>>> >>>>>I guess it was magnesium (alloy). >>>> >>>>No, that would not have ceased burning. More likely an iron alloy with >>>>Lanthanide rare earth content, maybe Lutetium. >>> >>> I have read that "flints" in lighters and torch ignitors are made of >>>ferrocerium, an iron-cerium alloy. >>> >>> Maybe those rcklike metal chunks are a titanium alloy. I have heard >>>that titanium was used in many popular smaller flashbulbs back when >>>cameras used smaller flashbulbs, flashbars and flashcubes. >> >>I thought flashbulbs used magnesium. > > I do remember reading a lot of sources around 30 or more years ago, >especially encyclopedias, saying magnesium. I have heard aluminum and >titanium to a lesser extent. > >(See below - I may be incorrectly remembering mention of titanium, it is >starting to look to me more like zirconium, one square down from titanium >in the periodic table.) > > I have also opened up a fair number of flashbulbs of different brands >and at least 4 sizes, plus the ones in flashcubes and flashbars. So far >in my experience, I have yet to find magnesium in any of them. > > The metal was always in my experience either aluminum or something >denser and grayer in color than aluminum or magnesium, and when burned in >atmospheric air burned in a way closer to that of steel wool (including >color temperature) than magnesium does, although faster and hotter than >steel wool. I cannot be certain what that metal was, but it does appear >to me to fit the description of titanium. > > One thing that I cannot rule out is either or both of these metals being >alloyed to reduce heat conduction to make them easier to ignite. > > It appears to me that flashbulbs were more likely to use aluminum if >they were larger, moderately older designs, and later small ones were more >likely to use the denser grayish metal that may be titanium. > > Meanwhile, the "aluminum wool" used in many flashbulbs, in my >experience, usually cannot be ignited in atmospheric air by a flame >(protective oxide thickens first), but can be ignited by a neon sign >transformer. That is why I think it was aluminum and not magnesium. > > Aluminum can be made to burn like magnesium does, but not as easily >most of the time due to greater heat conductivity and its tendency to >form a shielding oxide if it takes more than some fraction of a second to >heat it up to its ignition temperature. > > The denser, more grayish metal that may be "titanium wool" >in my experience is easy to ignite in atmospheric air with a flame. > > Wikipedia says magnesium was used earlier and zirconium was used later. >That means I may have been incorrect to have mentioned titanium. > > I just tried Google - a quickie look is appearing to me to support >zirconium over titanium although a US patent mentions titanium, zirconium, >magnesium and aluminum - as well as potassium perchlorate and >nitrocellulose. (Cover as many bases as possible?) > > Trying Google for flahbulb aluminum - I am finding support for what >apears to me to be "aluminum wool" to be a magnesium-aluminum alloy. > > One cite caught my attention: > >http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/1249/ >Twentieth-Century-Photographic-Lighting.html > > That one mentions use of aluminum-magnesium alloy, 92-93% Al, 7-8% Mg. >This probably explains why I thought it was aluminum. > > - Don Klipstein (don(a)misty.com) Thanks for doing the modest research for us all. Also many flashbulbs sported oxygen enriched atmospheres up to 60%. Zirconium is much closer to mischmetal in combustibility.
From: Dirk Bruere at NeoPax on 8 Apr 2010 12:23
On 06/04/2010 16:20, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote: > On 04/04/2010 16:47, Bert Hickman wrote: >> OK - what the heck are they shredding here?? >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A6yOk7Jt7c > > Possibly Neodymium. > I've machined that and it's spectacular. > http://www.paramount-metals.com/rareearth.htm -- Dirk http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show |