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From: Donald White on 21 Feb 2010 22:24
Don't know about x86 BIOS, but I have worked on U-BOOT. To get a stack
early during boot, a section of the cache is locked to provide writable
memory for a stack and global variables. I believe most modern
processors have this ability.

Don


On 2/21/2010 2:19 PM, Barry Watzman wrote:
> Re: "The code is register based, until ...."
>
> That is an assumption on your part. And in some cases it may be true.
>
> But if you are familiar with writing assembly language code, and you
> know what goes into a BIOS, you would also know that on a modern
> motherboard, it is impossible to get to the point where the single
> success "beep" is issued without having a stack and the ability to call
> subroutines.
>
> Modern motherboards require FAR too much initialization before memory
> can be sized or tested (even superficially) to allow you to get very far
> using entirely register based code. Can you get some kind of error beep
> out while still in entirely register based code? Depends on how much
> priority the code writers put on that particular objective. Yes, I have
> seen boards that would issue a beep with no memory at all. But in my own
> [fairly extensive] experience, they are the exception, not the rule.
> Most commonly, with no memory at all, you get absolutely nothing.
>
>
> Paul wrote:
>> Barry Watzman wrote:
>>> Some memory is normally required. Without memory (RAM) the CPU cannot
>>> establish a stack and cannot execute subroutine calls (or, more
>>> correctly, the returns from those calls). This will usually prevent
>>> even the POST single beep.
>>>
>>
>> The code is register based, until memory is commissioned. The
>> memory is not running, at startup. There is setup to be done
>> first. And it can beep, with the memory missing.
>>
>> Paul

From: Bob F on 22 Feb 2010 14:20
Bill Anderson wrote:
> Barry Watzman wrote:
>> A video card is not required to "make it beep"; indeed, the lack of a
>> video card will actually cause a beep code error. As a practical
>> matter, however, a video card is normally considered to be part of
>> the minimum system.
>>
>> I have seen instances in which a motherboard would not post because
>> the ps/2 mouse and keyboard were plugged in backwards (mouse in ps/2
>> KB port and vice versa).
>>
>> The wrong kind of memory can cause failure; some motherboards may
>> require a full bank of memory (not one module, but a set of multiple
>> modules).
>>
>> You seem to be in denial that the most likely problem other than a
>> user error IS a bad motherboard.
>>
>
> I bought a new motherboard -- a P5Q Pro Turbo -- and removed all parts
> from the P5K Deluxe and installed them on the P5Q. Guess what: it
> wouldn't post.
>
> So I began removing parts from the P5Q and discovered that one of my
> four 1G sticks of memory seemed to be the problem. When it was
> installed, no post. When it was removed, the P5Q worked. Install it;
> no post. Remove it; beep.
>
> OK, I figured I had isolated the problem. And if the trouble has been
> bad memory, why torture myself reinstalling Windows on a new
> motherboard when the old one seemed not to be the culprit?
>
> So out came the P5Q and back went the P5K. And with just the three
> sticks of memory installed, it was working fine. For a few days. Then it was
> up to its old tricks.
>
> So there's the reason I'm in denial about the motherboard being the
> culprit.
> As for being in denial about user error, here's what happened this
> morning when I turned on the computer.
>
> 1) I pressed the spacebar and the computer began powering up. Fans
> were running for maybe 3-4 seconds. Then everything shut down. I
> watched and waited for about 2-3 seconds. Then the fans powered up again all
> by themselves, the hard drives began running, the optical drive light
> came on, but no post. The blue light on the power button of my
> monitor was blinking, which is the normal indication that it's powered up but
> getting no video signal.
>
> 2) I held the case power button for about four seconds and the system
> shut down. I wanted a few seconds and pressed it again. The fans
> came on for no more than a second, maybe less, and then everything shut
> down. I watched for 2-3 seconds and the fans came back on all by
> themselves, the hard drives began running, the optical drive light came on,
> but no
> post. Again, the monitor was receiving no video signal.
>
> 3) I held the case power button for about four seconds and the system
> shut down. I wanted a few seconds and pressed it again. The fans
> cam on, the hard drives began running, the optical drive light came on,
> but no post, no video signal.
>
> 4) I held the case power button for about four seconds and the system
> shut down. I wanted a few seconds and pressed it again. The fans
> came on, I heard a beep, and I was in business.
>
> The system has been running fine this morning for the past three hours
> and I am confident it will continue to run normally for the rest of
> the day. It always does. I won't have a problem until I shut it down
> tonight and try to restart it tomorrow, when I'm pretty sure I'll
> experience the same behavior.
>
> Where in all that is there room for user error? Seriously, what do
> you think I could be doing wrong? I'll be delighted to take the
> blame if only I can figure out what's going wrong.

Did you check the battery?


From: Bill Anderson on 22 Feb 2010 16:53
On Feb 22, 2:20 pm, "Bob F" <bobnos...(a)gmail.com> wrote:

> Did you check the battery?

Well, no, but if it were a battery problem wouldn't I have time and
date problems too?

It is something to consider. I suppose i could switch out the battery
from the new P5Q board if they're the same. I'll give it a try this
afternoon. Hey, I'm ready to try anything at this point.

--
Bill Anderson

I am the Mighty Favog
From: Michael W Ryder on 23 Feb 2010 14:57
Bill Anderson wrote:
> On Feb 22, 2:20 pm, "Bob F" <bobnos...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Did you check the battery?
>
> Well, no, but if it were a battery problem wouldn't I have time and
> date problems too?
>
> It is something to consider. I suppose i could switch out the battery
> from the new P5Q board if they're the same. I'll give it a try this
> afternoon. Hey, I'm ready to try anything at this point.
>

What speed are you running the memory at? I had a lot of problems like
you mention when trying to use memory at 1066 MHz. I finally had to
order memory from Crucial to get reliable operation at 1066. The 1GB
G.Skill memory modules I originally used had no problems at 1066 but
when I upgraded to 2GB modules I had nothing but problems with G.Skill
and Corsair modules until I got the Crucial memory.


> --
> Bill Anderson
>
> I am the Mighty Favog
From: Bill Anderson on 23 Feb 2010 18:25
Michael W Ryder wrote:
> Bill Anderson wrote:
>> On Feb 22, 2:20 pm, "Bob F" <bobnos...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Did you check the battery?
>>
>> Well, no, but if it were a battery problem wouldn't I have time and
>> date problems too?
>>
>> It is something to consider. I suppose i could switch out the battery
>> from the new P5Q board if they're the same. I'll give it a try this
>> afternoon. Hey, I'm ready to try anything at this point.
>>
>
> What speed are you running the memory at? I had a lot of problems like
> you mention when trying to use memory at 1066 MHz. I finally had to
> order memory from Crucial to get reliable operation at 1066. The 1GB
> G.Skill memory modules I originally used had no problems at 1066 but
> when I upgraded to 2GB modules I had nothing but problems with G.Skill
> and Corsair modules until I got the Crucial memory.
>

That's good info and it's interesting you should suggest that. Yes, I
am running at 1066. Before I shut down tonight I'll back that down and
see if I have problems starting tomorrow. No sense trying to test it
now. Once my system starts running, it keeps running fine no matter how
many times I restart. I have to leave it shut down overnight in order
to see the problem again.

As it happens, when I first built the system I ordered two 1-gig sticks
of Crucial Ballistix memory complete with little blinky lights because
they were out of the non-blinkies and I'd have to wait a few days for
Crucial to restock them. Who cares if they blink like a carnival ride?
I wanted memory right then and I took what Crucial could offer.

As I recall, everything worked fine for a few months and then I started
having all sorts of problems. I thought it was a HDD but Paul here on
this group correctly diagnosed memory problems. I sent the memory back
and got two more sticks and all was well until the problems cropped up
again in a few months. This time I pleaded my case with the nice young
man at Crucial and he told me they'd improved the design of those memory
sticks. Would I like to return the memory and have them send me the
newer, more reliable version at no cost? The newer version seems to be
causing fewer problems, he said. Well, hmmmm, looks likes Crucial has a
crappy product and knows it -- so of course I took him up on his offer.
In fact I even ordered two more 1-gig sticks that were exactly the
same (he promised) but didn't have stupid blinky lights.

So that's what I'm running now, but only three of the four sticks
because it appears that one of the blinky light sticks has failed yet
again. While I was testing the new P5Q board, I found it wouldn't post
with one of the blinky light sticks installed. The other one worked,
but there was one that seemed to be bad. I haven't tested it since, so
I'm not completely sure it's faulty. I'll get around to it soon.

I'm going on vacation this Saturday and I'm not really interested in
tearing down the computer until I get back in a couple of weeks. So
each day I just push the power button again and again until I finally
get a beep. Worked on the third try this afternoon.

And once it's running it's just a fantastic system. No problems at all.

Once it's running.

--
Bill Anderson

I am the Mighty Favog
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