bad sectors on a mybook WD usb drive
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From: Rod Speed on 20 Feb 2010 11:44 sobriquet wrote: > On 20 feb, 04:00, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> sobriquet wrote: >>> On 19 feb, 19:10, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Rod Speed wrote >> >>>>> sobriquet wrote >>>>>> sobriquet <dohduh...(a)yahoo.com> wrote >>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....(a)gmail.com> wrote >>>>>>>> sobriquet wrote >>>>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed....(a)gmail.com> wrote >>>>>>>>>> sobriquet wrote >>>>>>>>>>> I've lost some data on a 2 tb WD mybook usb drive. When >>>>>>>>>>> I did a full scan, it found something like 3 mb in bad >>>>>>>>>>> sectors. >>>>>>>>>>> However, when I reformatted the drive, somehow all bad >>>>>>>>>>> sectors were recovered. Apparently, there is some >>>>>>>>>>> redundancy in diskspace, so it can allocate some of that >>>>>>>>>>> extra space to substitute for the bad sectors on disk when >>>>>>>>>>> it's just a small section of bad sectors. >>>>>>>>>> Yes, all modern hard drives have spare sectors >>>>>>>>>> that can be used as substitutes for bad sectors. >>>>>>>>>>> The disk is also able to pass the short drive test (in >>>>>>>>>>> winDLG under xp), that it used to fail, before I >>>>>>>>>>> reformatted the drive. >>>>>>>>>>> Now I wonder if the fact that previously bad sectors have >>>>>>>>>>> occurred and I've lost data, is that increasing the >>>>>>>>>>> likelyhood that this >>>>>>>>>>> might happen again? >>>>>>>>>> Yes, that many bad sectors >>>>> It isnt in fact all that many now that we can see the SMART data. >>>>>>>>>> does indicate a problem with the drive or >>>>>>>>>> that the drive is running much too hot etc. >>>>>>>>>>> Is the drive less reliable in any way once a small >>>>>>>>>>> number of bad sectors have been identified >>>>>>>>>> Yes, and 3MB is not a small number of bad sectors. >>>>> Turns out to only be 3 bad sectors. >> >>>> And 3 more pending. >> >>>>>>>>>>> (even though the bad sectors are no longer visible after the >>>>>>>>>>> drive has been formatted again and other drivespace is >>>>>>>>>>> substituted for the bad sectors)? >>>>>>>>>> Yes, it either indicates that the drive is dying, or that its >>>>>>>>>> running stinking hot etc. >>>>>>>>>>> Below is the original log from chdsk when the bad sectors >>>>>>>>>>> were found: >>>>>>>>>> chkdsk isnt a very useful indication of the health of the >>>>>>>>>> drive. >>>>>>>>>> You really need a proper SMART report on the drive. >>>>>>>>>> That isnt necessarily that easy to get for free with an >>>>>>>>>> external drive. >>>>>>>>> Well, with winDLG, it does say the SMART status is OK for the >>>>>>>>> device, >>>>>>>> That never means much, its the detailled values that matter. >>>>>>>>> and I can get more detailed SMART info. >>>>>>>>> Here is a screenshot of the SMART info: >>>>>>>>> http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/74/wdmybook.jpg >>>>>>>> It isnt at all clear what that actually means, particularly >>>>>>>> what the warranty field means. And the reallocated sector >>>>>>>> entry and the temperature entry make no sense either. >>>>>>>> The Everest SMART report is much more readable, >>>>>>>> but doesnt work with external drives in the free version. >>>>>>>> smartclt from a linux bootable cd might, and HDSentinal might, >>>>>>>> but it isnt free. >>>>>>> The version I've tried from HDSentinel wasn't up to date, but >>>>>>> perhaps the version (5.30) of Everest on demonoid will provide >>>>>>> more detailed >>>>>>> SMART info on the drive. I'm busy with the drive now, but I'll >>>>>>> soon >>>>>>> follow up on this with a screenshot of the Everest SMART info of >>>>>>> the drive. >>>>>> Screenshot of Everest SMART info of the same drive: >>>>>> http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5343/everestje.jpg >>>>> Thats much better. That shows 3 reallocated sectors which >>>>> isnt too bad given the utterly obscene temperature of 63C. >> >>>> And its actually been to 87, thats completely and utterly obscene. >> >>>>> The temperature is certainly the problem and the >>>>> drive will be fine if you can stop it getting that hot. >>>>> Not easy to stop it getting that hot tho, particularly in the >>>>> summer without air conditioning etc with those external drives. >> >>>> I'd be returning it if it was mine, but that wouldnt be a warranty >>>> claim and how >>>> easy it would be to do that depends on your country and its >>>> consumer laws. >> >>>> The technical term is unfit for purpose in countrys with a legal >>>> system derived from the british system. >> >>>> I cant remember the detail with Dutch law. >> >>> http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5758/everest1q.jpg >> >>> So that means one of my internal hitachi drives reached a >>> temperature of 150C?! >> >> Nope, 40C > > But that 40 number for the hitachi drive is in the same column as the 63 for the WD drive.. Yes, but there are two numbers in that column with the Hitachi. > and I don't understand the relationship between > the raw values and the value/worst numbers, or does > that differ between various brands/models of HDs? Yes it does.
From: Robert Nichols on 21 Feb 2010 02:45 In article <7uacddFq0nU2(a)mid.individual.net>, Arno <me(a)privacy.net> wrote: :sobriquet <dohduhdah(a)yahoo.com> wrote: : :> Here is a screenshot of the SMART info from Everest when the drive has :> just been :> turned on after the power has been off for a while. : : :> http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3280/everest2t.jpg : :Fits. With the linear regression from my other posting, :it looks like your disk went up to something like 63C, :and that could be enough to degrade its mechanics and :electronics enough to have caused a large number of :errors. Plus, it confirms that the raw value (28) is indeed the Celsius temperature. :To sum up: It looks like you nearly cooked your disk to :death and the 6000 reallocated sectors happened when it :was close to to failing completely. : :Note that there are 3 stages to heat death (with my personal :estimation when they happen, depends also on the drive): : : 1. Starts to produce errors [60-70C]: you were there : 2. Fails, but works again after cooldown [65-75C] : 3. Fails permanently or suffers permanent damage [?] : :In all stages the disk ages very rapidly and may fail soon. :I would also not really trust a disk anymore that has reached :stage 2. And, unless that drive has been operating in an unusually hot environment (sitting on top of a hot air register, maybe?) I'd scream bloody Hell to WD about the unconscionably bad thermal design of that enclosure. -- Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"
From: Arno on 21 Feb 2010 14:13 Robert Nichols <SEE_SIGNATURE(a)localhost.localdomain.invalid> wrote: > In article <7uacddFq0nU2(a)mid.individual.net>, Arno <me(a)privacy.net> wrote: > :sobriquet <dohduhdah(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > : > :> Here is a screenshot of the SMART info from Everest when the drive has > :> just been > :> turned on after the power has been off for a while. > : > : > :> http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3280/everest2t.jpg > : > :Fits. With the linear regression from my other posting, > :it looks like your disk went up to something like 63C, > :and that could be enough to degrade its mechanics and > :electronics enough to have caused a large number of > :errors. > Plus, it confirms that the raw value (28) is indeed the Celsius > temperature. Indeed. > :To sum up: It looks like you nearly cooked your disk to > :death and the 6000 reallocated sectors happened when it > :was close to to failing completely. > : > :Note that there are 3 stages to heat death (with my personal > :estimation when they happen, depends also on the drive): > : > : 1. Starts to produce errors [60-70C]: you were there > : 2. Fails, but works again after cooldown [65-75C] > : 3. Fails permanently or suffers permanent damage [?] > : > :In all stages the disk ages very rapidly and may fail soon. > :I would also not really trust a disk anymore that has reached > :stage 2. > And, unless that drive has been operating in an unusually hot > environment (sitting on top of a hot air register, maybe?) I'd scream > bloody Hell to WD about the unconscionably bad thermal design of that > enclosure. I am a bit surprised by this. I have several WD elements 1TB and 1.5TB, both im the older aluminum and the newer plastic case, and they do not have anything like this problem. What I see is something like 15C over ambient temperature. If the MyBook drives get that much hotter, then WD seems to have messed up badly. Not that this would surprise me. There are far too many companies hiring young, inexperienced, cheap engineers for design work. The last instance I had the misfortune to run in was a new ASUS mainboard with thermal design so bad it died within a week. The northbridge cooler was thermally a bit on the small side, but at the same time mechanically on the large and attached so badly that a light touch would tear it loose from the chip and kill the chip. When I then found thermal grease incompetenly applied over the not removed (!) phase change pad on the replacement board, I decided to not buy ASUS again. This looks very much like cutting cost a bit too much and not noticeing it. Not something an experienced enginneer does, but a typical beginners mistake. The ones truely responsible are of course those that hired the inexperienced engineers and did not give them experienced support and supervision, i.e. this is very likely a management mess-up. Arno -- Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: arno(a)wagner.name GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F ---- Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans
From: Robert Nichols on 22 Feb 2010 11:59 In article <7udeuhFlolU1(a)mid.individual.net>, Arno <me(a)privacy.net> wrote: : :The last instance I had the misfortune to run in was a new ASUS :mainboard with thermal design so bad it died within a week. The :northbridge cooler was thermally a bit on the small side, but at the :same time mechanically on the large and attached so badly that a light :touch would tear it loose from the chip and kill the chip. When I :then found thermal grease incompetenly applied over the not removed :(!) phase change pad on the replacement board, I decided to not buy :ASUS again. This looks very much like cutting cost a bit too much and :not noticeing it. Not something an experienced enginneer does, but a :typical beginners mistake. The ones truely responsible are of course :those that hired the inexperienced engineers and did not give them :experienced support and supervision, i.e. this is very likely a :management mess-up. OTOH, my recent ASUS motherboard (M4A78T-E) has been performing splendidly for 3 months now. As with most things, YMMV. -- Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"
From: Bob Willard on 23 Feb 2010 07:01
Arno wrote: > There are far too many companies hiring young, inexperienced, > cheap engineers for design work. > > The last instance I had the misfortune to run in was a new ASUS > mainboard with thermal design so bad it died within a week. The > northbridge cooler was thermally a bit on the small side, but at the > same time mechanically on the large and attached so badly that a light > touch would tear it loose from the chip and kill the chip. When I > then found thermal grease incompetenly applied over the not removed > (!) phase change pad on the replacement board, I decided to not buy > ASUS again. This looks very much like cutting cost a bit too much and > not noticeing it. Not something an experienced enginneer does, but a > typical beginners mistake. The ones truely responsible are of course > those that hired the inexperienced engineers and did not give them > experienced support and supervision, i.e. this is very likely a > management mess-up. > > Arno > I do suspect, based on limited evidence, that there has been a reduction in product quality in recent years. Some examples of my oldies-but-goodies: 1.My K7M and its 500 MHz Athlon CPU have been running 24x7 since Dec'99. I did replace the PS once and I did add a HD twice, and I think I added RAM once, but the MB+CPU are original. Stability may be due to continued use of Win98. ;-) 2.My primary printer for this multiple-PC site is a HPLJ4L, bought in Jul'94. It uses a couple of cartridges a year (light duty). Other than a paper jam roughly every six months, reliability is incredible. Meanwhile, I'm on my 5th or 6th InkJet, from various vendors. They eat color cartridges, clog badly, and don't handle paper well. I push everybody here to stick to B&W for printouts. <Black helicopter alert> Could it be that hardware vendors have gotten jealous of the level of quality that PC software vendors get by with, and have tried to lower their quality standards to match M$? <Cancel alert> -- Cheers, Bob |