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From: Bill Sloman on 17 May 2010 08:29 On May 17, 3:41 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > Joerg wrote: > > >Bill Slomanwrote: > > > On May 16, 11:49 pm, John Larkin > > > <jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > > >> On Sun, 16 May 2010 14:04:22 -0700, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> > > >> wrote: > > > >>> JosephKK wrote: > > >>>> On Fri, 14 May 2010 09:17:15 -0700, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>> John Larkin wrote: > > >>>>>> On Fri, 14 May 2010 07:39:56 -0700, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: <snip> > > >> Sometimes "fair" is the enemy of "works." If everyone were equally > > >> dirt-poor, it would be fair. > > > > Huh? If the competent people who worked hard end up as dirt poor as > > > the idiots who didn't, it wouldn't be fair. I'm not saying that the > > > productive minority is entitled to hang onto everthing that they > > > managed to accumulate - there's not a lot of tax to be collected from > > > idle incompetents, and the administration does have to collect enough > > > in taxes to keep the machinery of society turning over - but since > > > society consists of non-identical individuals, there's nothing fair > > > about reducing the best to the same condition as the worst. > > > Shazam! I would have never imagined that this sort of statement would > > come from you. While we disagree on just about anything else, there you > > were right on. > > Even a blind pig... So there's still hope for Michael A. Terrell - not a lot, but some. -- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
From: Michael A. Terrell on 17 May 2010 09:24 "krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote: > > On Mon, 17 May 2010 00:10:33 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > >"krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote: > >> > >> Where have the aliens taken Slowman? > > > > > > Who cares, as long as they don't bring him back. > > ...but what did they leave it it's place? The same as they took. Another useless lump of clay.
From: Joerg on 17 May 2010 09:40 krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: > On Sun, 16 May 2010 17:43:32 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> Bill Sloman wrote: [...] >>> Huh? If the competent people who worked hard end up as dirt poor as >>> the idiots who didn't, it wouldn't be fair. I'm not saying that the >>> productive minority is entitled to hang onto everthing that they >>> managed to accumulate - there's not a lot of tax to be collected from >>> idle incompetents, and the administration does have to collect enough >>> in taxes to keep the machinery of society turning over - but since >>> society consists of non-identical individuals, there's nothing fair >>> about reducing the best to the same condition as the worst. >>> >> Shazam! I would have never imagined that this sort of statement would >> come from you. While we disagree on just about anything else, there you >> were right on. > > Where have the aliens taken Slowman? He must have gone to one of the tea parties and woken up :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joerg on 17 May 2010 09:49 JosephKK wrote: > On Sun, 16 May 2010 14:04:22 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> JosephKK wrote: >>> On Fri, 14 May 2010 09:17:15 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 14 May 2010 07:39:56 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>> [...] >>>> >>>>>>> I like the sales tax, as opposed to income tax, because it puts >>>>>>> business on a better basis against imports, so saves jobs. And because >>>>>>> it would be enormously simpler and cheaper to comply with. No >>>>>>> accountants, no tax returns, no exemptions, no deductions, no >>>>>>> quarterly estimates, no loopholes... almost. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tax consumption. Don't tax savings or investment or job creation. If a >>>>>>> person is rich but doesn't spend any money, nobody can reasonably be >>>>>>> jealous of his wealth. >>>>>>> >>>>>> A serious problem with that: It punishes frugal people who have saved >>>>>> for their retirement and rewards those who squandered everything. The >>>>>> money they saved _has_ already been taxed. >>>>> Simple fix: don't tax income. >>>>> >>>> Yeah, but how do you deal with income that _has_ already been taxed but >>>> not spent yet because people saved it for their retirement? A flat >>>> VAT-type tax is the same as confiscating xx% percent of that. Not fair >>>> at all. >>> Gosh, are your savings all that significant? Don't you pay (an ever >>> increasing in CA) sales tax already? Please to explain the difference. >> >> The difference is this: Yes, I do save for retirement. And yes, one has >> to make sacrifices to do that. > > So do I. > That's good, not many people do that. >> Such as not buying a new car every five >> years. > > Let's see, my car is model year 1994, bought used. ... Ok, model year 1995 for the Toyota, the Mits is two years younger. You win that one :-) > ... Do you want to continue? > Yeah. How many miles on it? The Toyota is somewhere around 45k, the Mits is 67k or so. >> As said several times this money _has_ already been taxed. So if >> the income of the paycheck-to-paycheck guy gets taxed only at >> consumption he has only paid tax once. > > Same for me. You have not made a case for yourself yet. > This hypothetical person does not exist yet. > You mean the hand-to-mouth guy? I could show you dozens. In fact, that seems to be the MO for most people. >> I have then paid twice. That is >> simply unfair. > > A. Life IS unfair. > It doesn't have to be and one can do something about it. That's why I would squarely oppose such a shift. And I sure would know a lot of retirees who'd march to Washington if that ever were to happen. > B. I would be in the same boat. Pretty much only kids would "benefit" > Right. And we can't let that happen. I remember when Sweden "fixed" the problems caused by wanton spending, by socking it to the retired. >> Are you really thinking CA will give up their "normal" sales tax? You >> must be dreaming ... >> >> It'll also lead to tricks that people play. Lots of Europeans who must >> pay a painfully high VAT come to the US and buy tons of stuff. >> Electronics, clothes, you name it. If they manage to sneak it past >> customs when going back home the vacation they enjoyed was often largely >> "free". > > SO NOT NEWS. 'Murcans do it too. What I am saying is that it'll multiply. Big time. You would see jobs over here shrivel up at a pace never heard before. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joerg on 17 May 2010 10:01
Bill Sloman wrote: > On May 16, 1:11 am, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >> Bill Slomanwrote: >>> On May 13, 5:59 pm, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>> Bill Slomanwrote: >>>>> On May 13, 3:46 pm, John Larkin >>>>> <jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 13 May 2010 02:34:35 -0700 (PDT),Bill Sloman >>>>>> <bill.slo...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >>>>>>> On May 12, 7:57 pm, John Larkin >>>>>>> <jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Wed, 12 May 2010 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT),Bill Sloman >>>>>>>> <bill.slo...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I don't harvest; I think. >>>>>>>>> An unconvincing claim. Your "thinking" reflects your indolent habit of >>>>>>>>> picking up predigested nonsense that fits your fat-headed >>>>>>>>> preconceptions. >>>>>>>> I've been calling you a fathead for years. You can't even design >>>>>>>> original insults. >>>>>>>>> In this thread you've claimed that the euro can't be stable currency >>>>>>>>> because it shared across several countries with different economic >>>>>>>>> strengths and weaknessess, while failing to note that the US dollar is >>>>>>>>> shared across the united states of America - running from Alaska to >>>>>>>>> Wyoming (neither of whose economies look much like California's). >>>>>>>> But we only have one government. >>>>>>> Your states don't have legislatures and governors? >>>>>> They aren't allowed to print money or regulate big financial >>>>>> institutions. Most must balance their budgets. The trouble that >>>>>> California is in now will be fixed by California. The trouble that >>>>>> Greece is in now will be fixed by Germany. >>>>> Do pay attention. The trouble that Greece is now in will be fixed by >>>>> Greece. The EU - as a whole - will under-write Greek borrowing until >>>>> that happens. The Germans have had quite a lot of influence on the >>>>> requirements imposed on the Greeks in return for the guarantees, but >>>>> the Greeks have to do the work. >>>> Do pay attention: >>>> http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/2010/05/german-parliament-clears... >>>> Quote: "Members of the Bundestag, Germany's lower house, approved a >>>> state-backed guarantee for the loan ..." >>> It's you who needs to pay attention. The EU - as a whole - is under- >>> writing the Greek borrowing. The individual memebers of the EU have to >>> pass legislation to approve their particular country's part of the >>> package. The Dutch lower house approved the Dutch component recently. >>> It's still a collective decision. >> So, what exactly does "state-backed" mean in your opinion? > > That the individual states guarantee that their particular portion of > the loan will be paid by that particular loan if Greece goes bankrupt? > What else would it mean? > Ah, now you are beginning to get it. You wrote above, quote "The EU - as a whole - is underwriting the Greek borrowing". Which is wrong. For example if Greece fails to service the debt it now has in Germany the EU won't pay the Germans back. Their own taxpayers will. And those are rather pissed right now and for good reason. >> Your notion that "The trouble that Greece is now in will be fixed by >> Greece" will IMHO not come to pass. > > You are making a prediction, based on the little you know about the > situation, heavily influenced by what you've read in the US mass > media. As opinions go, it doesn't carry a lot of weight. > Check the facts. Greece has no industry to write home about, tourism is declining because countries like Turkey are cheaper, and they can't print Euros. Did I forget anything? Guess not. >> They are unlikely to be able to fix the >> damage that living beyond their means for years has done. > > Why? The US - which has been running a hugge balance of payemnts > deficit since Regan was president - would suggest that you might be > right, but the money market hasn't yet got around to labelling US > treasury bonds as risky investments. > We have an industry. Greece doesn't. HUGE difference. Open your PC or whatever else electronic and see how many components in there are from Greek companies. Open the hood of your car and do same. In fact, open just about anything. > The Greek credit rating has now gone through the floor, and they've > got no option but reform. > But torching the bank buildings isn't going to achieve that. >> It's other European countries who will fix it, also countries >> overseas such as the US (via IMF). > > The IMF has a one-size-fits all solution for every country that gets > into serious debt. It does seem to be based on the prescriptions of a > group of particularly unrealistic US economic theorists, and tends to > do serious damage to the real economy in the process of restoring the > credit rating, but international credit rating never did have much to > do with reality, as we got to see when the sub-prime mortgage crisi > hit the fan. > And your alternative would be? > Be that as it may, the Greeks have run out of options, and they will > do what every other government has done when they fall into the hands > of the IMF, which is to follow the - stupid - prescriptions. > Obviously that will be much better than what they did so far, and what got them into this mess in the first place. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. |