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From: Tom H on 10 Jul 2010 17:50 On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Bob Proulx <bob(a)proulx.com> wrote: > Paul E Condon wrote: >> Tom H wrote: >> > Paul E Condon wrote: >> > > Tom H wrote: >> > >> Camaleón wrote: >> > >> >> This is the same url as the previous (grub1) manual, so as far as gnu is >> > >> >> concerned, there must only be one grub... >> > >> > >> > >> > How bad! :-( > > They have moved on. It doesn't benefit the upstream to keep two > versions active. For better or for worse this is mostly how all > upstreams work. > >> > >> > There are still people using Grub legacy and online manual is very useful >> > >> > (i.e., for pointing someone to a specific paragraph or give it a quick >> > >> > review). > > True. But you can always quote the parts to which you are referring. > >> > The first has the following at the top: >> > 'You can browse the documentation of GNU GRUB by "info grub" on your >> > shell prompt (or use your favorite Info browser, if you don't like >> > info).' >> > >> > Strange decision... > > Why is that strange? The official documentation for GNU projects is > texinfo documentation. It has been this way for a very long time. It is strange because it would have been easy and wold not have been taxing to have a http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grublegacy.html page for those people who need to consult or refer others to grub-legacy's manual online. Furthermore, many distributions default to grub1, Debian Stable, Fedora, RHEL and its clones (in the latter case, probably until 2014 for RHEL 5 and, since RHEL 6 is based on F12/F13, probably until 2017 for RHEL 6). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/AANLkTil1RHmFLrthTMlVAQcwfGqYkwLhXewS008sxLpO(a)mail.gmail.com
From: Bob Proulx on 10 Jul 2010 18:10 Tom H wrote: > Bob Proulx wrote: > > Why is that strange? The official documentation for GNU projects is > > texinfo documentation. It has been this way for a very long time. > > It is strange because it would have been easy and wold not have been > taxing to have a > http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grublegacy.html page for > those people who need to consult or refer others to grub-legacy's > manual online. Well... If you (and Camaleón) feel that strongly about it then discussing it here should just be a launching point to taking the discussion to upstream. Don't be shy about giving them feedback! Otherwise how will they know? I am sure they will have considered this already but every vote is going to help sway them over to your way of thinking. However I would expect that in return they would try hard to get you to upgrade. [Note: The main grub page says that you need to be subscribed to grub-devel to post there but let me assure you that isn't true. But they set reply-to back to the list (evil villians!) so if you are not reading the list itself you won't see a response.] > Furthermore, many distributions default to grub1, Debian Stable, > Fedora, RHEL and its clones (in the latter case, probably until 2014 > for RHEL 5 and, since RHEL 6 is based on F12/F13, probably until 2017 > for RHEL 6). Debian Squeeze, quite soon to be the next Stable, has moved to grub2. The others are on their own but I am sure will upgrade in due time. Bob
From: thib on 10 Jul 2010 19:10 Bob Proulx wrote: > Well... If you (and Camale�n) feel that strongly about it then > discussing it here should just be a launching point to taking the > discussion to upstream. Don't be shy about giving them feedback! > Otherwise how will they know? I am sure they will have considered > this already but every vote is going to help sway them over to your > way of thinking. However I would expect that in return they would try > hard to get you to upgrade. They could do that, but I personally don't think it makes much sense. Distributions that are still using grub1 should also distribute its documentation - at least Debian does (see the grub-legacy-doc package). -t -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4C38FCA8.5040004(a)stammed.net
From: Camaleón on 11 Jul 2010 06:20 On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:05:53 -0600, Bob Proulx wrote: > Camaleón wrote: >> They can "move on" without hurting users >:-( > > Hmm... Is there something in particular that makes grub different from > any other random project? Yes. There are not many bootloaders out there with the same capabilities that show GRUB :-) Besides, GRUB (legacy and 2) if the default bootloader in many linux distriburions, as well as BSD and OpenSolaris. It manages well with many different environments, is very flexible and powefull so it tends to be the preferred bootloader choice in many places. > Does every project need to keep every version > of their history available and online for all time? Most don't. Any project should care their history. In fact, their history is what they are. And every release has to have documentation, relase notes, faq, etc... Sure, they can keep it off-line and hide it from anyone but having that information and make it publicly available is a "plus" that many user value more that even other things. Did you hear recently about Debian's snapshot archive? http://snapshot.debian.org That kind of initiatives makes me think why Debian is starting to like me so much :-) > How is 'grub' different from say 'grep'? Should 'grep' keep all > versions of its historical documentation online? If the distro happens > to have an older version of 'grep' installed but the GNU version is > newer are they bad because they don't keep the older documentation > online? What makes 'grub' special? > > http://www.gnu.org/software/grep/manual/ How GRUB is different from "grep"? I dunno, but I can tell you how different is GRUB legacy from GRUB2 and bootloader is far long more important that a command line utility like grep. If you cannot boot your system you cannot even "grep-for-nothing" >:-) >> Hey, we are talking about "documentation", not the full project. GRUB >> legacy code will be still available while not actively developed, >> that's fine, at least for me it makes sense. But deleting the online >> documentacion just because the project is old/deprecated... wow, I >> cannot understand that decision. > > Isn't that just standard operating procedure? Don't most projects > update in place? Should 'gawk' also keep the documentation for older > versions online? > > http://www.gnu.org/software/gawk/manual/ I'm unaware of any "stantard procedure" here. I kwon about "good decisions" or "bad decisions" and removing the online documentaion for older projects is, from my point of view, a very bad decision. >> Anyway, GRUB legacy is still installed by default in some major >> distributions (i.e., openSUSE). > > Then if it benefits their users isn't the responsibility of OpenSuSE to > provide documentation that matches their distribution? (And I would say > the same about Debian.) Yes, in fact they are doing it right now. But major distributions can provide tips/tweaks for configuring the bootloader under their own systems, but that is not what I am talking here. I would like to query the official GRUB legacy documentation online. We are talking about just "a link", I don't think anyone can object about that, being a non resource expensive and non work-force required task. >> > True. But you can always quote the parts to which you are referring. >> >> (...) >> >> Not always. I can be on non-linux system without access to any "man >> grub" nor "info grub" :-/ > > For me I wouldn't ever be on such a system. :-) :-) You're lucky, then. Many people (me included) have to fight with mixed environments >:-) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.07.11.10.18.03(a)gmail.com
From: Camaleón on 11 Jul 2010 06:40
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:06:12 -0600, Bob Proulx wrote: > Tom H wrote: >> It is strange because it would have been easy and wold not have been >> taxing to have a >> http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grublegacy.html page for those >> people who need to consult or refer others to grub-legacy's manual >> online. > > Well... If you (and Camaleón) feel that strongly about it then > discussing it here should just be a launching point to taking the > discussion to upstream. Don't be shy about giving them feedback! > Otherwise how will they know? I am sure they will have considered this > already but every vote is going to help sway them over to your way of > thinking. However I would expect that in return they would try hard to > get you to upgrade. (...) Sure! I just have written an e-mail to the maintainer of the site¹ :-) ¹http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/grub-legacy-support.en.html Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.07.11.10.36.09(a)gmail.com |