harnessing lightning, or not
in [Design]
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From: Michael A. Terrell on 14 Jun 2010 15:13 Spehro Pefhany wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:43:55 -0700, Archimedes' Lever > <OneBigLever(a)InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote: > > >On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:24:34 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > >wrote: > > > >>Archimedes' Lever wrote: > >>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:56:25 -0400, Spehro Pefhany > >>> <speffSNIP(a)interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 03:04:03 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > >>>> <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Joerg wrote: > >>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: > >>>>>>> Joerg wrote: > >>>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: > >>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On 12 Jun 2010 07:16:54 -0700, Winfield Hill > >>>>>>>>>>> <Winfield_member(a)newsguy.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post > >>>>>>>>>>>> with photo, at the CR4 forum. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837 > >>>>>>>>>>> You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high > >>>>>>>>>>> standards! > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is > >>>>>>>>>>> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a > >>>>>>>>>>> neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey, > >>>>>>>>>> why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads > >>>>>>>>>> that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to > >>>>>>>>>> ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*. > >>>>>>>>> Yawn. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> T'is what I did when I just encountered the umpteenth module where that > >>>>>>>> was done wrong :-) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yawn, as in: WHAT ABOUT ALL THE RF EQUIPMENT WITH A DC VOLTAGE AT THE > >>>>>>> INPUT CONNECTOR? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> Gear out in the field typically never has that. I've done a lot of RF > >>>>>> designs and even more re-designs by now. The number of units that would > >>>>>> be DC-fed or have to provide LNA power was zero. Fact is, units deployed > >>>>>> in the south or on the island won't even live through the first year > >>>>>> with a nice big inductor to ground. Lightning strike into some fence out > >>>>>> there, voltage surge, somewhere above 100V the input cap decides it's > >>>>>> had it ... *POP* ... preamp and final TX amp are goners. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different. > >>>>> > >>>>> If they won't survive, why are there hundreds of Dish and Direct > >>>>> satellite companies around here? Or line powered TV preamps? > >>>> Active antennas (powered through the signal coax) are quite common on > >>>> aircraft navigation systems too, so splitters etc. have to be > >>>> specified with some care. > >>> > >>> > >>> They are usually NOT exposed. ie under a sheath, nosecone, or dome. > >> > >> > >>How's that going to help against lightning effects? > > > > > > An antenna under a dome or sheath will not be an attractor for > >lightning like a raw, exposed stick would, so the strike will be upon the > >craft, not the antenna. The only effect after that are the induced EM > >effects, if any. > > Not much of a "stick" at L1, L2, or the frequencies used by the > geostationary sats for WAAS, as well as sat data/voice (eg. Iridium). We called them Upper L and Lower L in the telemetry business. P band was common, too. All were tiny probes in a feedhorn. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
From: Archimedes' Lever on 14 Jun 2010 15:21 On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:57:02 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Archimedes' Lever wrote: >> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:24:34 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Archimedes' Lever wrote: >>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:56:25 -0400, Spehro Pefhany >>>> <speffSNIP(a)interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 03:04:03 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >>>>> <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: >>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12 Jun 2010 07:16:54 -0700, Winfield Hill >>>>>>>>>>>> <Winfield_member(a)newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post >>>>>>>>>>>>> with photo, at the CR4 forum. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837 >>>>>>>>>>>> You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high >>>>>>>>>>>> standards! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is >>>>>>>>>>>> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a >>>>>>>>>>>> neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey, >>>>>>>>>>> why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads >>>>>>>>>>> that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to >>>>>>>>>>> ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*. >>>>>>>>>> Yawn. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> T'is what I did when I just encountered the umpteenth module where that >>>>>>>>> was done wrong :-) >>>>>>>> Yawn, as in: WHAT ABOUT ALL THE RF EQUIPMENT WITH A DC VOLTAGE AT THE >>>>>>>> INPUT CONNECTOR? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gear out in the field typically never has that. I've done a lot of RF >>>>>>> designs and even more re-designs by now. The number of units that would >>>>>>> be DC-fed or have to provide LNA power was zero. Fact is, units deployed >>>>>>> in the south or on the island won't even live through the first year >>>>>>> with a nice big inductor to ground. Lightning strike into some fence out >>>>>>> there, voltage surge, somewhere above 100V the input cap decides it's >>>>>>> had it ... *POP* ... preamp and final TX amp are goners. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different. >>>>>> If they won't survive, why are there hundreds of Dish and Direct >>>>>> satellite companies around here? Or line powered TV preamps? >>>>> Active antennas (powered through the signal coax) are quite common on >>>>> aircraft navigation systems too, so splitters etc. have to be >>>>> specified with some care. >>>> >>>> They are usually NOT exposed. ie under a sheath, nosecone, or dome. >>> >>> How's that going to help against lightning effects? >> >> >> An antenna under a dome or sheath will not be an attractor for >> lightning like a raw, exposed stick would, so the strike will be upon the >> craft, not the antenna. The only effect after that are the induced EM >> effects, if any. > > >It is not about a direct strike, it is about coupled voltage spikes from >strikes in the vicinity. If you don't have a conductive path right from >antenna to GND that typically means more field failures. A lot more. What part of the word 'induced' did you fail to learn in your study years?
From: Archimedes' Lever on 14 Jun 2010 15:23 On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:07:09 -0400, Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP(a)interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: >On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:43:55 -0700, Archimedes' Lever ><OneBigLever(a)InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote: > >>On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:24:34 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>wrote: >> >>>Archimedes' Lever wrote: >>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:56:25 -0400, Spehro Pefhany >>>> <speffSNIP(a)interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 03:04:03 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >>>>> <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: >>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12 Jun 2010 07:16:54 -0700, Winfield Hill >>>>>>>>>>>> <Winfield_member(a)newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post >>>>>>>>>>>>> with photo, at the CR4 forum. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837 >>>>>>>>>>>> You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high >>>>>>>>>>>> standards! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is >>>>>>>>>>>> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a >>>>>>>>>>>> neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey, >>>>>>>>>>> why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads >>>>>>>>>>> that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to >>>>>>>>>>> ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*. >>>>>>>>>> Yawn. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> T'is what I did when I just encountered the umpteenth module where that >>>>>>>>> was done wrong :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yawn, as in: WHAT ABOUT ALL THE RF EQUIPMENT WITH A DC VOLTAGE AT THE >>>>>>>> INPUT CONNECTOR? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gear out in the field typically never has that. I've done a lot of RF >>>>>>> designs and even more re-designs by now. The number of units that would >>>>>>> be DC-fed or have to provide LNA power was zero. Fact is, units deployed >>>>>>> in the south or on the island won't even live through the first year >>>>>>> with a nice big inductor to ground. Lightning strike into some fence out >>>>>>> there, voltage surge, somewhere above 100V the input cap decides it's >>>>>>> had it ... *POP* ... preamp and final TX amp are goners. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different. >>>>>> >>>>>> If they won't survive, why are there hundreds of Dish and Direct >>>>>> satellite companies around here? Or line powered TV preamps? >>>>> Active antennas (powered through the signal coax) are quite common on >>>>> aircraft navigation systems too, so splitters etc. have to be >>>>> specified with some care. >>>> >>>> >>>> They are usually NOT exposed. ie under a sheath, nosecone, or dome. >>> >>> >>>How's that going to help against lightning effects? >> >> >> An antenna under a dome or sheath will not be an attractor for >>lightning like a raw, exposed stick would, so the strike will be upon the >>craft, not the antenna. The only effect after that are the induced EM >>effects, if any. > >Not much of a "stick" at L1, L2, or the frequencies used by the >geostationary sats for WAAS, as well as sat data/voice (eg. Iridium). > ANY sharp protrusion has a huge gradient difference compared to rounded or no protrusion. The Iridium is a six inch long stick, BTW.
From: Joerg on 14 Jun 2010 15:44 Archimedes' Lever wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:57:02 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Archimedes' Lever wrote: >>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:24:34 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Archimedes' Lever wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:56:25 -0400, Spehro Pefhany >>>>> <speffSNIP(a)interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 03:04:03 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >>>>>> <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: >>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12 Jun 2010 07:16:54 -0700, Winfield Hill >>>>>>>>>>>>> <Winfield_member(a)newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with photo, at the CR4 forum. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837 >>>>>>>>>>>>> You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high >>>>>>>>>>>>> standards! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is >>>>>>>>>>>>> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a >>>>>>>>>>>>> neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey, >>>>>>>>>>>> why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads >>>>>>>>>>>> that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to >>>>>>>>>>>> ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*. >>>>>>>>>>> Yawn. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> T'is what I did when I just encountered the umpteenth module where that >>>>>>>>>> was done wrong :-) >>>>>>>>> Yawn, as in: WHAT ABOUT ALL THE RF EQUIPMENT WITH A DC VOLTAGE AT THE >>>>>>>>> INPUT CONNECTOR? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gear out in the field typically never has that. I've done a lot of RF >>>>>>>> designs and even more re-designs by now. The number of units that would >>>>>>>> be DC-fed or have to provide LNA power was zero. Fact is, units deployed >>>>>>>> in the south or on the island won't even live through the first year >>>>>>>> with a nice big inductor to ground. Lightning strike into some fence out >>>>>>>> there, voltage surge, somewhere above 100V the input cap decides it's >>>>>>>> had it ... *POP* ... preamp and final TX amp are goners. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different. >>>>>>> If they won't survive, why are there hundreds of Dish and Direct >>>>>>> satellite companies around here? Or line powered TV preamps? >>>>>> Active antennas (powered through the signal coax) are quite common on >>>>>> aircraft navigation systems too, so splitters etc. have to be >>>>>> specified with some care. >>>>> They are usually NOT exposed. ie under a sheath, nosecone, or dome. >>>> How's that going to help against lightning effects? >>> >>> An antenna under a dome or sheath will not be an attractor for >>> lightning like a raw, exposed stick would, so the strike will be upon the >>> craft, not the antenna. The only effect after that are the induced EM >>> effects, if any. >> >> It is not about a direct strike, it is about coupled voltage spikes from >> strikes in the vicinity. If you don't have a conductive path right from >> antenna to GND that typically means more field failures. A lot more. > > What part of the word 'induced' did you fail to learn in your study > years? That's why I am surprised you don't understand why there needs to be an inductor. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joerg on 14 Jun 2010 15:46
Spehro Pefhany wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:43:55 -0700, Archimedes' Lever > <OneBigLever(a)InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote: > >> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:24:34 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Archimedes' Lever wrote: >>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:56:25 -0400, Spehro Pefhany >>>> <speffSNIP(a)interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 03:04:03 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >>>>> <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: >>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12 Jun 2010 07:16:54 -0700, Winfield Hill >>>>>>>>>>>> <Winfield_member(a)newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post >>>>>>>>>>>>> with photo, at the CR4 forum. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837 >>>>>>>>>>>> You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high >>>>>>>>>>>> standards! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is >>>>>>>>>>>> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a >>>>>>>>>>>> neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey, >>>>>>>>>>> why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads >>>>>>>>>>> that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to >>>>>>>>>>> ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*. >>>>>>>>>> Yawn. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> T'is what I did when I just encountered the umpteenth module where that >>>>>>>>> was done wrong :-) >>>>>>>> Yawn, as in: WHAT ABOUT ALL THE RF EQUIPMENT WITH A DC VOLTAGE AT THE >>>>>>>> INPUT CONNECTOR? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gear out in the field typically never has that. I've done a lot of RF >>>>>>> designs and even more re-designs by now. The number of units that would >>>>>>> be DC-fed or have to provide LNA power was zero. Fact is, units deployed >>>>>>> in the south or on the island won't even live through the first year >>>>>>> with a nice big inductor to ground. Lightning strike into some fence out >>>>>>> there, voltage surge, somewhere above 100V the input cap decides it's >>>>>>> had it ... *POP* ... preamp and final TX amp are goners. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different. >>>>>> If they won't survive, why are there hundreds of Dish and Direct >>>>>> satellite companies around here? Or line powered TV preamps? >>>>> Active antennas (powered through the signal coax) are quite common on >>>>> aircraft navigation systems too, so splitters etc. have to be >>>>> specified with some care. >>>> >>>> They are usually NOT exposed. ie under a sheath, nosecone, or dome. >>> >>> How's that going to help against lightning effects? >> >> An antenna under a dome or sheath will not be an attractor for >> lightning like a raw, exposed stick would, so the strike will be upon the >> craft, not the antenna. The only effect after that are the induced EM >> effects, if any. > > Not much of a "stick" at L1, L2, or the frequencies used by the > geostationary sats for WAAS, as well as sat data/voice (eg. Iridium). > I've seen (and remedied) situations where 2"-3" sticks caused massive field failures. Because the inductive path was lacking. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. |