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From: BillW50 on 2 Nov 2009 10:34
In news:hclr0h$thk$1(a)news.eternal-september.org,
Barry Watzman typed on Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:34:06 -0500:
> I have worked for laptop manufacturers, service laptops and teach IT
> (specifically A+ certification and networking courses) at a local
> college.
> I disagree with the part of your post which stated "components that
> are underspecified or are not tested for value accuracy"; but I do
> agree with "today's laptops are much more poorly built than older
> models".
>
> The differences are not components or specifications, but rather what
> I call "build quality". The decline in "build quality" comes from
> pressure to cut down on cost, weight and size, all of which contribute
> to systems that are electrically well designed but which are
> mechanically flimsy and of inferior quality compared to the way that
> laptops were built 4 to 8 years ago.

I don't know... as computers are always going to get more powerful and
less expensive over time. And I am not convinced that there is a decline
in built quality either. As laptops have also improved over the years
too. Like getting rid of florescent lamps and inverters and trading them
for a row of bright LEDs. Which are much more reliable and not as
sensitive to shock.

Speaking about not sensitive to shock, we are only a few years away from
SSDs replacing old mechanical hard drives. I too also believe this is
far better than the older method. And speaking of mechanical hard
drives, these too have been improved over the years. Some even sport
anti-shock features. They have also increased in capacity and also
dropped in price.

Take my old Epson PX-8 built back in 1984. I like to think of it as the
first netbook. As it is about the same size and shape. But the display
is terrible and it is heavy. Besides it is very limited compared to
today's standards. Although it is well built, nonetheless. Although it
also cost $2000 (including the RAMDrive and extras) back then. I do love
the Epson's keyboard, but for that price you should get a great
keyboard. Even then and now though, I would have traded it for one of
today's netbooks in a heartbeat. ;-)

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2


From: Barry Watzman on 2 Nov 2009 16:53
Re: "I am not convinced that there is a decline in built quality either"

If you have been taking apart a variety of models made over a 15-year
period, your doubts about that would disappear very quickly. They don't
build them like they used to. It's only partly cost related, the
pressure to make things smaller and lighter (and, especially, thinner)
also contributes. The circuitry, the ICs and other components, are not
the problem. It's the overall mechanical assembly, everything from the
thickness of the motherboard and the thickness of the foil traces to the
all-plastic (thin, cheap plastic) cases. The build quality is not what
it used to be. Again, the problem is not the components (which includes
the hard drives), it's how those components are assembled.



BillW50 wrote:
> In news:hclr0h$thk$1(a)news.eternal-september.org,
> Barry Watzman typed on Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:34:06 -0500:
>> I have worked for laptop manufacturers, service laptops and teach IT
>> (specifically A+ certification and networking courses) at a local
>> college.
>> I disagree with the part of your post which stated "components that
>> are underspecified or are not tested for value accuracy"; but I do
>> agree with "today's laptops are much more poorly built than older
>> models".
>>
>> The differences are not components or specifications, but rather what
>> I call "build quality". The decline in "build quality" comes from
>> pressure to cut down on cost, weight and size, all of which contribute
>> to systems that are electrically well designed but which are
>> mechanically flimsy and of inferior quality compared to the way that
>> laptops were built 4 to 8 years ago.
>
> I don't know... as computers are always going to get more powerful and
> less expensive over time. And I am not convinced that there is a decline
> in built quality either. As laptops have also improved over the years
> too. Like getting rid of florescent lamps and inverters and trading them
> for a row of bright LEDs. Which are much more reliable and not as
> sensitive to shock.
>
> Speaking about not sensitive to shock, we are only a few years away from
> SSDs replacing old mechanical hard drives. I too also believe this is
> far better than the older method. And speaking of mechanical hard
> drives, these too have been improved over the years. Some even sport
> anti-shock features. They have also increased in capacity and also
> dropped in price.
>
> Take my old Epson PX-8 built back in 1984. I like to think of it as the
> first netbook. As it is about the same size and shape. But the display
> is terrible and it is heavy. Besides it is very limited compared to
> today's standards. Although it is well built, nonetheless. Although it
> also cost $2000 (including the RAMDrive and extras) back then. I do love
> the Epson's keyboard, but for that price you should get a great
> keyboard. Even then and now though, I would have traded it for one of
> today's netbooks in a heartbeat. ;-)
>
From: BillW50 on 2 Nov 2009 18:08
In news:hcnkd7$kcu$1(a)news.eternal-september.org,
Barry Watzman typed on Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:53:40 -0500:
> Re: "I am not convinced that there is a decline in built quality
> either"
> If you have been taking apart a variety of models made over a 15-year
> period, your doubts about that would disappear very quickly. They
> don't build them like they used to. It's only partly cost related,
> the pressure to make things smaller and lighter (and, especially,
> thinner) also contributes. The circuitry, the ICs and other
> components, are not the problem. It's the overall mechanical
> assembly, everything from the thickness of the motherboard and the
> thickness of the foil traces to the all-plastic (thin, cheap plastic)
> cases. The build quality is not what it used to be. Again, the
> problem is not the components (which includes the hard drives), it's
> how those components are assembled.

Well I have been taking them apart for the past 15 years. And yes, I
have seen what you are talking about. Although not everything has gone
that way. For example, Asus President didn't want the EeePCs to have
that cheap feeling. So they made sure it had great solid lid hinges. And
that was a weak point of laptops even some 15 years ago.

Another trick Asus did to save on weight was to use the keyboard as a
heatsink. As why add a heatsink when the keyboard would work too? I
believe this was another great idea. Although the PCB are indeed very
thin.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2


From: BillW50 on 2 Nov 2009 18:28
In news:t5lue5lhm5sqcnt9fecpj8v316p8e4lauj(a)4ax.com,
me/2 typed on Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:47:09 -0700:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:34:06 -0500, Barry Watzman
> <WatzmanNOSPAM(a)neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>> I have worked for laptop manufacturers, service laptops and teach IT
>>> (specifically A+ certification and networking courses) at a local
>>> college.
>>>
>>> I disagree with the part of your post which stated "components that
>>> are underspecified or are not tested for value accuracy"; but I do
>>> agree
>>> with "today's laptops are much more poorly built than older models".
>>>
>>> The differences are not components or specifications, but rather
>>> what I call "build quality". The decline in "build quality" comes
>>> from
>>> pressure to cut down on cost, weight and size, all of which
>>> contribute
>>> to systems that are electrically well designed but which are
>>> mechanically flimsy and of inferior quality compared to the way that
>>> laptops were built 4 to 8 years ago.
>
> I'll have to agree with you there. My last 10 years of employment
> before retiring around 3 years ago was as a senior tech at a Toshiba
> Premier ASP. I was there when Toshiba made the transition from
> notebooks being designed and built by Toshiba to notebooks being
> speced by Toshiba and being designed and built by Compal. This was
> followed by Toshiba using other Taiwanese ODS like Inventec, Quanta
> and ASUStek.
>
> During the Toshbia designed and built days we saw more notebooks in
> for service that had software issues and not failed hardware. Once
> they went over to the ODMs we saw just the opposite. Either outright
> hardware failures like the rear mounted ac adapter jack that was
> soldered directly to the system board and easily broke off damaging
> the system board beyond normal repair or poorly designed cooling
> systems that were all but impossible for the end user to keep clean
> and working correctly. Also virtually all the class action lawsuits
> that Toshiba was hit with in those days were about ODM designed and
> bult models.
>
> me/2

Well I know what you both are saying. But not everything was too rosy
back then either. As what about the old Toshiba 1950CS 486 laptops built
in '94? Toshiba didn't have fans in them yet and in a few years the
power regulators cooked themselves to death.

Or what about my Toshiba 2595XDVD laptops ('99 era)? Both of them would
just suddenly freeze up about twice a week. I would lose all of my
unsaved work. That was really annoying as I killed power and rebooted.
Even Linux users complained about it. So it wasn't Windows. Years later
I discovered all one has to do to unlock the computer was to hit the
Function key. Boy I wish I had known that years earlier. :-(

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2


From: Barry Watzman on 2 Nov 2009 19:54
You touched on a couple of things that I've noticed, as I also work
mostly on Toshiba (followed by Dell, Gateway and Lenovo).

Actually, I had more problems with AC adapter sockets on motherboards
themselves back in the old ("Toshiba built") days. That is the one --
the ONLY -- area where I think things got better (almost all later
Toshibas mount the DC input jack on the case rather than the motherboard
and have a short cable to the motherboard). The sockets still fail,
which is a user error (mechanical stress), but now you can replace the
socket without having to replace the motherboard (or remove and replace
a component soldered to the motherboard).

However, I've seen a HUGE number of motherboard failures in Toshiba
units that I didn't used to see. Apparently (because I don't do this
work myself, but I talk to the people I send motherboards out to) the
motherboards themselves are now so thin and flexible that the BGA
soldering of the chipsets to the motherboard fails. And I see a LOT
more problems with Toshiba units in this regard than with some other
brands (the A105 and A135 were particularly bad ... a huge number of
motherboard failures).

Another big issue -- and one that is pushing me away from Toshiba,
frankly -- is problems caused by overheating. The same guys who replace
BGA chipsets on motherboards tell me that occasionally they can just
"reflow" the chipset and it fixes the BGA connections. BUT, too often,
the chipset itself is fried by overheating. The chipsets have heatsinks
also, in most modern laptops. But when the cooling system fails (e.g.
the fan and heatsink become clogged with dirt, dust and hair), the CPUs
handle it relatively gracefully (they "throttle" themselves and prevent
their own destruction) but the chipsets don't handle it so well and are
often destroyed. Not a huge difference between Toshiba and other brands
in that regard, EXCEPT .... Dell and Lenovo and even Gateway provide a
door (removeable panel) on the bottom of the laptop explicitly for
cleaning the CPU cooling system (heatsink and fan). Toshiba used to do
that in some older models (the A40's, for example), but in the newer
units (again, starting, it seems, with the A100/105 series) they don't.
THERE IS NO WAY TO CLEAN THE CPU HEATSINK AND FAN, other than a total
disassembly of the unit (remove the motherboard from the case, because
the CPU is now on the bottom of the motherboard in most units). Of
course, this never happens, and we have, again, a huge number of
motherboard failures. [When I do disassemble a unit, it's not unusual
to find a couple of CUBIC INCHES of "hairball", often so bad that the
fan blades no longer are even capable of turning.]

What's sad is that this stuff is just plain dumb. There is no reason
for it, it doesn't really save anything, but "that's the way they are".

For no apparent reason.


me/2 wrote:

>
> I'll have to agree with you there. My last 10 years of employment
> before retiring around 3 years ago was as a senior tech at a Toshiba
> Premier ASP. I was there when Toshiba made the transition from
> notebooks being designed and built by Toshiba to notebooks being
> speced by Toshiba and being designed and built by Compal. This was
> followed by Toshiba using other Taiwanese ODS like Inventec, Quanta
> and ASUStek.
>
> During the Toshbia designed and built days we saw more notebooks in
> for service that had software issues and not failed hardware. Once
> they went over to the ODMs we saw just the opposite. Either outright
> hardware failures like the rear mounted ac adapter jack that was
> soldered directly to the system board and easily broke off damaging
> the system board beyond normal repair or poorly designed cooling
> systems that were all but impossible for the end user to keep clean
> and working correctly. Also virtually all the class action lawsuits
> that Toshiba was hit with in those days were about ODM designed and
> bult models.
>
> me/2
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