php processing name vs. id field
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From: Peter Lind on 1 Jul 2010 09:28 On 1 July 2010 15:02, Bob McConnell <rvm(a)cbord.com> wrote: > From: Peter Lind > >> On 1 July 2010 14:38, Bob McConnell <rvm(a)cbord.com> wrote: >>> From: Adam Richardson >>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 9:16 PM, David Mehler > <dave.mehler(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> I've got a php form processing question. I've got a text field like >>> so: >>>>> >>>>> <div> >>>>> <label for="txtname">Name*:</label> >>>>> <input type="text" name="name" id="name" size="30" value="<?php > echo >>>>> htmlspecialchars($_POST['name']), ENT_QUOTES, UTF-8; ?>" /> <br /> >>>>> </div> >>>>> >>>>> My question is what is the purpose of the id field? I know the name >>>>> field is what php references, but am not sure what id is for? >>>> >>>> Sometimes it's helpful to target a specific element for stylistic or >>>> functional purposes, and that's when you'll find an id attribute >>> helpful. >>>> >>>> In your example above, label elements use the id in the 'for' >>> attribute >>>> (and, speaking to your example, you should have for="name" instead > of >>>> for="txtname"): >>>> http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_label.asp >>>> >>>> In terms of CSS, you can specifically reference the element by it's > id >>> using >>>> the notation tag_name#id_value, and id's have the highest order of >>>> specificity (i.e., if you try and style an element by tag name, > class, >>>> and/or id, the id styles are what will take precedent, all other >>> things >>>> equal.) >>>> http://webdesign.about.com/od/cssselectors/qt/cssselid.htm >>>> http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/css_specificity_wars.html >>>> >>>> In terms of javascript, you can reference the element by it's id by >>> using >>>> the function getElementById('id_value): >>>> http://www.tizag.com/javascriptT/javascript-getelementbyid.php >>>> >>>> Just remember that a particular id can only occur once on a page >>> (another >>>> difference between the name attributes in a form, as you could have >>> multiple >>>> forms on a page and each form could have an input with a "zip" name >>> without >>>> issue, but that same page could only have one id with the value >>> "zip".) >>>> >>>> That all said, with the advent of javascript data attributes, you'll >>> have >>>> one more way to target elements for design and functionality: >>>> http://ejohn.org/blog/html-5-data-attributes/ >>> >>> If you look at the current HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0 specification, you >>> will find 'name' is no longer listed as a standard attribute. It is > all >>> but obsolete and has been replaced by 'id' almost everywhere. They >>> actually recommend you put both attributes into tags with identical >>> values until your applications can be updated to drop all uses of the >>> name attribute. >>> >>> <http://www.w3schools.com/tags/default.asp> >>> >> >> Errr, what? Name is by no means obsolete for forms. Have a look at >> > http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#attr > -fe-name >> - it's still in the html5 spec and there's little to no chance of it >> going away any time soon. > > HTML5 is years away from completion and still changes far too often, so > we don't consider it nearly ready for prime time. XHTML is here now, has > several usable validation suites and has been stable for years. That's > more of a reasonable target for commercial products. > >> Relying on w3schools is not ... really advisable. > > Where else would you go? Even W3C doesn't publish decent reference > documents, and their specifications are inscrutable to normal human > beings. > > Bob McConnell > -- <hype> WWW: http://plphp.dk / http://plind.dk LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/plind BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51 Twitter: http://twitter.com/kafe15 </hype>
From: Peter Lind on 1 Jul 2010 09:40 On 1 July 2010 15:28, Peter Lind <peter.e.lind(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 1 July 2010 15:02, Bob McConnell <rvm(a)cbord.com> wrote: >> From: Peter Lind >> >>> On 1 July 2010 14:38, Bob McConnell <rvm(a)cbord.com> wrote: >>>> From: Adam Richardson >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 9:16 PM, David Mehler >> <dave.mehler(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> I've got a php form processing question. I've got a text field like >>>> so: >>>>>> >>>>>> <div> >>>>>> <label for="txtname">Name*:</label> >>>>>> <input type="text" name="name" id="name" size="30" value="<?php >> echo >>>>>> htmlspecialchars($_POST['name']), ENT_QUOTES, UTF-8; ?>" /> <br /> >>>>>> </div> >>>>>> >>>>>> My question is what is the purpose of the id field? I know the name >>>>>> field is what php references, but am not sure what id is for? >>>>> >>>>> Sometimes it's helpful to target a specific element for stylistic or >>>>> functional purposes, and that's when you'll find an id attribute >>>> helpful. >>>>> >>>>> In your example above, label elements use the id in the 'for' >>>> attribute >>>>> (and, speaking to your example, you should have for="name" instead >> of >>>>> for="txtname"): >>>>> http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_label.asp >>>>> >>>>> In terms of CSS, you can specifically reference the element by it's >> id >>>> using >>>>> the notation tag_name#id_value, and id's have the highest order of >>>>> specificity (i.e., if you try and style an element by tag name, >> class, >>>>> and/or id, the id styles are what will take precedent, all other >>>> things >>>>> equal.) >>>>> http://webdesign.about.com/od/cssselectors/qt/cssselid.htm >>>>> http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/css_specificity_wars.html >>>>> >>>>> In terms of javascript, you can reference the element by it's id by >>>> using >>>>> the function getElementById('id_value): >>>>> http://www.tizag.com/javascriptT/javascript-getelementbyid.php >>>>> >>>>> Just remember that a particular id can only occur once on a page >>>> (another >>>>> difference between the name attributes in a form, as you could have >>>> multiple >>>>> forms on a page and each form could have an input with a "zip" name >>>> without >>>>> issue, but that same page could only have one id with the value >>>> "zip".) >>>>> >>>>> That all said, with the advent of javascript data attributes, you'll >>>> have >>>>> one more way to target elements for design and functionality: >>>>> http://ejohn.org/blog/html-5-data-attributes/ >>>> >>>> If you look at the current HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0 specification, you >>>> will find 'name' is no longer listed as a standard attribute. It is >> all >>>> but obsolete and has been replaced by 'id' almost everywhere. They >>>> actually recommend you put both attributes into tags with identical >>>> values until your applications can be updated to drop all uses of the >>>> name attribute. >>>> >>>> <http://www.w3schools.com/tags/default.asp> >>>> >>> >>> Errr, what? Name is by no means obsolete for forms. Have a look at >>> >> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#attr >> -fe-name >>> - it's still in the html5 spec and there's little to no chance of it >>> going away any time soon. >> >> HTML5 is years away from completion and still changes far too often, so >> we don't consider it nearly ready for prime time. XHTML is here now, has >> several usable validation suites and has been stable for years. That's >> more of a reasonable target for commercial products. >> >>> Relying on w3schools is not ... really advisable. >> >> Where else would you go? Even W3C doesn't publish decent reference >> documents, and their specifications are inscrutable to normal human >> beings. >> >> Bob McConnell >> Sorry about the empty mail, a mistake. Apart from that, html5 is not going to do away with the name attribute. And name is in xhtml1 and html4.01 and there's no mention of it being obsolete, deprecated or in any other fashion on the way out. As far as reference: the source. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/dtds.html#a_dtd_XHTML-1.0-Strict very clearly specifies that name is still a very valid attribute. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#h-17.4 shows the same in a slightly more readable format - the only mentions of anything deprecated (there are no references to anything obsolete) are for the isindex element and the align attribute of the legend element. What is the case regarding the name attribute is that it's been deprecated for a few elements (such as a, form, frame, img) in XHTML1 and will be removed in XHTML2 (which we'll likely never see used in browsers). See http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#h-4.10 Regards Peter -- <hype> WWW: http://plphp.dk / http://plind.dk LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/plind BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51 Twitter: http://twitter.com/kafe15 </hype>
From: Paul M Foster on 1 Jul 2010 10:19 On Thu, Jul 01, 2010 at 03:40:56PM +0200, Peter Lind wrote: <snip> > Apart from that, html5 is not going to do away with the name > attribute. And name is in xhtml1 and html4.01 and there's no mention > of it being obsolete, deprecated or in any other fashion on the way > out. > > As far as reference: the source. > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/dtds.html#a_dtd_XHTML-1.0-Strict very > clearly specifies that name is still a very valid attribute. > http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#h-17.4 shows the same > in a slightly more readable format - the only mentions of anything > deprecated (there are no references to anything obsolete) are for the > isindex element and the align attribute of the legend element. > > What is the case regarding the name attribute is that it's been > deprecated for a few elements (such as a, form, frame, img) in XHTML1 > and will be removed in XHTML2 (which we'll likely never see used in > browsers). See http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#h-4.10 All this is fortunate, since I don't think PHP is even aware of the ID attribute. Imagine trying to process form fields without the "name" attribute being present. Paul -- Paul M. Foster
From: Ashley Sheridan on 1 Jul 2010 19:15 On Thu, 2010-07-01 at 10:19 -0400, Paul M Foster wrote: > On Thu, Jul 01, 2010 at 03:40:56PM +0200, Peter Lind wrote: > > <snip> > > > Apart from that, html5 is not going to do away with the name > > attribute. And name is in xhtml1 and html4.01 and there's no mention > > of it being obsolete, deprecated or in any other fashion on the way > > out. > > > > As far as reference: the source. > > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/dtds.html#a_dtd_XHTML-1.0-Strict very > > clearly specifies that name is still a very valid attribute. > > http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#h-17.4 shows the same > > in a slightly more readable format - the only mentions of anything > > deprecated (there are no references to anything obsolete) are for the > > isindex element and the align attribute of the legend element. > > > > What is the case regarding the name attribute is that it's been > > deprecated for a few elements (such as a, form, frame, img) in XHTML1 > > and will be removed in XHTML2 (which we'll likely never see used in > > browsers). See http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#h-4.10 > > All this is fortunate, since I don't think PHP is even aware of the ID > attribute. Imagine trying to process form fields without the "name" > attribute being present. > > Paul > > -- > Paul M. Foster > Not sure if my other email got through earlier. Replacing the name attribute on form fields with the id one is not feasible at all. They don't even behave the same. What would happen if you had two forms on a page that both had an element with the same name? Using the name attribute, everything is fine, but not so if you were using the id instead. Going further, what about form elements sent as an array? I don't think the id attribute is set up to follow any sort of array format (bearing in mind also that it's only PHP that uses the [] suffix to denote a form element be sent as an array). Doing so would break the functionality of many pages today (no longer would DOM functions such as getElementByID() work anymore because you'd be retrieving potentially more than one element, so code like document.getElementById('element').style.something wouldn't work. Either way, the id attribute is not, and dare I say doesn't ever look to be, a substitute for the name attribute on form elements. Thanks, Ash http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
From: "Bob McConnell" on 2 Jul 2010 08:49
From: Ashley Sheridan > Not sure if my other email got through earlier. Replacing the name > attribute on form fields with the id one is not feasible at all. They > don't even behave the same. What would happen if you had two forms on a > page that both had an element with the same name? Using the name > attribute, everything is fine, but not so if you were using the id > instead. These conditions sound like a bugs to me. I can't imagine any reason why different forms could have the same name or id. That applies to any set of elements on a page. Each one must have a unique moniker, no matter which attribute you use. Even the simple validations I use will complain about your duplicates, as they should. Making them all unique also makes it much simpler to use tools like Selenium or Silk Test to automate the testing process. Looking at the HTML 4.01 references given earlier in this thread, I see that id is now a core attribute, i.e. it is available for all but a handful of tags, while name is only available for the tags where it is explicitly included. So it still appears to me that id is the preferred attribute, as it is more generally available. Bob McConnell |