qooxlisp live - 3MB bloatware
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From: Kenneth Tilton on 8 Jun 2010 08:47 Scott Sauyet wrote: > Kenneth Tilton wrote: >> RobG wrote: >>> On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the >>>> site name): >>>> http://www.teamalgebra.com/ >>> With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page. >> Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version >> has a noscript chunk to help you out. > >>> Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load. >> I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the >> server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s. > > > I tested with a very fast connection and fast computer, and it never > loaded in less than 8 seconds. Yeah, I lied. I get 11s or so. The 4-5s was what I remembered from loading from localhost. > Testing now at home over a mediocre > DSL, it's around 100 seconds on an empty cache. I sometimes see it loading the 300+ files 4/s, never wait around to see it finish. I think the Lisp server I use might be doing that. For me, resetting the browser gets it back to loading in 10+s. Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it makes one file, 989kb. Trying to get that working for a release 2.0. > >>> Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time >>> on any system. >> No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that >> that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s. >> >> Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not >> nothing, but should be even better. > > There are regular complaints on this group about the size of a 70KB > (unzipped) file. Is all that really necessary for this relatively > simple page? I think it's like Lisp applications: even "Hello World" will end up with most of Lisp in there. One could go crazy trying to have a build procedure take out uneccessary code, but then (a) how much would one save and (b) why bother? These frameworks are for RIAs, which will indeed use many components of a framework. The only beneficiary would be small demos, which I suspect is not worth the trouble. And libraries are pyramids -- that "simple" demo uses a nice variety of widgets, including a remote table with scrolling, movable and hidable columns, one column data renderer, and probably reaches down into a lot of code. > > >>>> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the >>>> thing into submission. >>> You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks. >> I try. > > You try to what, annoy the hell out of everyone here? I believe the people annoyed are the ones who hope to be both annoyed and annoying, aka, mindlessly abusive of anyone not using raw HTML. Yes, it gives me great pleasure to annoy them, since they are the ones being bullies and they totally need to be laughed at, not listened to. You have a sick little cult in this NG, self-important and posturing, utterly convinced of themselves while the silent majority just rolls their eyes at them and gets on with their work. Speaking of which... > > >>> [...] >>>> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com >>> Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it >>> is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors. >> Go flame Yahoo SiteBuilder. > > Or better yet, the person who posted it as an example... > > >>>> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself." >>>> Macworld >>> Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious. >> You never heard of Macworld? > > http://www.google.com/search?q=%22The+best+Algebra+tutorial+program+I+have+seen%22+site:macworld.com > > returns no results... Do you have a more detailed reference? I have the whole review somewhere, but a digital version could be tough to dig up. If you are seriously interested I'll look for it. > > >>> According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version, >> The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop. > >>> which >>> left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a >>> Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a >>> superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link >>> Software" in April 1991. >> If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it. > > Are you telling us that this ran on a Mac web browser in 1991? No, it was written originally for the Mac, in C. The defter of the intellects in this group might be able to figure out I have decided to release it as a web app, hence qooxlisp. ie, plaintiff was confusing the present with the past. kt -- http://www.stuckonalgebra.com "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself." Macworld
From: Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn on 8 Jun 2010 09:09 Kenneth Tilton wrote: > Scott Sauyet wrote: >> Testing now at home over a mediocre >> DSL, it's around 100 seconds on an empty cache. > > I sometimes see it loading the 300+ files 4/s, never wait around to see > it finish. I think the Lisp server I use might be doing that. > > For me, resetting the browser gets it back to loading in 10+s. > > Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it makes one file, 989kb. > Trying to get that working for a release 2.0. "kb" means "kilobit" to you too, yes? If no, forget it, you are not ready for serious Web development. PointedEars -- Use any version of Microsoft Frontpage to create your site. (This won't prevent people from viewing your source, but no one will want to steal it.) -- from <http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help/hidesource.htm> (404-comp.)
From: David Mark on 8 Jun 2010 09:33 On Jun 7, 7:27 pm, RobG <rg...(a)iinet.net.au> wrote: > On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the > > site name): > > > http://www.teamalgebra.com/ > > With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page. > > Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load. > Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time > on any system. > > Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I > can't get it to do anything, are there instructions? > > [...] > > > Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to > > acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play > > much. > > "Intermittent" is an understatement, it doesn't work at all. > > > I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the > > thing into submission. > > You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks. > > [...] > > > --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com > > Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it > is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors. > > > "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself." > > Macworld > > Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious. > > According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version, which > left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a > Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a > superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link > Software" in April 1991. > > There seems to be a pattern here that does not leave a good > impression. > > 1. <URL:http://www.theoryyalgebra.com/macworld.html> > Yes. Like the repeating background image. But I suppose that's the least of the worries. Quite a flair for self-promotion, but folds on interrogation.
From: David Mark on 8 Jun 2010 09:53 On Jun 7, 9:27 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > RobG wrote: > > On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the > >> site name): > > >> http://www.teamalgebra.com/ > > > With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page. > > Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version > has a noscript chunk to help you out. The page is a Javascript library?! > > > > > Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load. > > I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the > server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s. > > What browser/OS? As if that matters. 3MB is 3MB (and about 2.95MB too much). > > > Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time > > on any system. > > No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that > that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s. > > Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not > nothing, but should be even better. You could fit 8 or 9 copies of My Library (the full build) in that file, plus all of the add-ons. And you'd actually have a shot at decent community support (as opposed to commiseration) as well. I tried to warn you. Those bloated widgets and OO syntactic sugar are bad for you. Like junk food, they'll give you a quick rush. Then you come back down to earth and realize you haven't budged from ground zero. > > > > > Once viewed, the page is dysfunctional in both Firefox 3.6 and IE 6. I > > can't get it to do anything, are there instructions? > > I am starting to think it's my bug. The next release will have a > "Search" button I suspect will work so you can at least have some fun. > I'll try adding some instructions to the page itself. > > > > > [...] > >> Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to > >> acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play > >> much. > > > "Intermittent" is an understatement, it doesn't work at all. > > I know the feeling, but messing around at one point it did start working > in both. > > > > >> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the > >> thing into submission. > > > You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks. > > I try. > > > > > [...] > >> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com > > > Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it > > is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors. > > Go flame Yahoo SiteBuilder. Technical criticism is not flaming. Go validate your markup. > > > > >> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself.." > >> Macworld > > > Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious. > > You never heard of Macworld? Nope. Okay, perhaps vaguely. > > > > > According to the "stuckonalgebra" site, there is no Mac version, > > The Mac does not have Web browsers? You have a scoop. They sure didn't have Web browsers in 1991. > > > which > > left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a > > Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a > > superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link > > Software" in April 1991. > > If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it. You are welcome to it. Just don't toss it around without proper attribution.
From: David Mark on 8 Jun 2010 10:11
On Jun 8, 8:47 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Scott Sauyet wrote: > > Kenneth Tilton wrote: > >> RobG wrote: > >>> On Jun 8, 6:26 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the > >>>> site name): > >>>> http://www.teamalgebra.com/ > >>> With javascript disabled, it shows a blank page. > >> Possibly related to this being a javascript library? The next version > >> has a noscript chunk to help you out. > > >>> Enabling javascript, the page took nearly 4 minutes to load. > >> I get that, too, sometimes. Not sure what's going on. Possibly the > >> server is being silly, because other times it loads in 4-5s. > > > I tested with a very fast connection and fast computer, and it never > > loaded in less than 8 seconds. > > Yeah, I lied. I get 11s or so. The 4-5s was what I remembered from > loading from localhost. > > > Testing now at home over a mediocre > > DSL, it's around 100 seconds on an empty cache. > > I sometimes see it loading the 300+ files 4/s, never wait around to see > it finish. I think the Lisp server I use might be doing that. > > For me, resetting the browser gets it back to loading in 10+s. > > Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it makes one file, 989kb. > Trying to get that working for a release 2.0. > > > > >>> Downloading 335 files totalling 3MB is going to take a very long time > >>> on any system. > >> No, I normally get 4-5s. Any time it hangs I reset the browser (not that > >> that should be necessary) and then I get 4-5s. > > >> Anyway, I just did a "release build" and it's one file, 989kb. Not > >> nothing, but should be even better. > > > There are regular complaints on this group about the size of a 70KB > > (unzipped) file. Is all that really necessary for this relatively > > simple page? > > I think it's like Lisp applications: even "Hello World" will end up with > most of Lisp in there. Oh. How lame. :( > One could go crazy trying to have a build > procedure take out uneccessary code, but then (a) how much would one > save and (b) why bother? These frameworks are for RIAs, which will > indeed use many components of a framework. Get real. If components cannot be separated, they aren't components. And even the most involved RIA's should require no more than 100K worth of widgets and such. Total. > The only beneficiary would be > small demos, which I suspect is not worth the trouble. You just have no experience with RIA's. > And libraries are > pyramids -- that "simple" demo uses a nice variety of widgets, including > a remote table with scrolling, movable and hidable columns, one column > data renderer, and probably reaches down into a lot of code. That's all piffle. There's no such thing as a (sound) UI widget that takes more than a day to implement. If you have a sound DOM scripting foundation (you don't), they are all about the same. And if you have any real experience at all (and you don't), you have most of the basic ones in stock. > > > > >>>> I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the > >>>> thing into submission. > >>> You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks. > >> I try. > > > You try to what, annoy the hell out of everyone here? > > I believe the people annoyed are the ones who hope to be both annoyed > and annoying, aka, mindlessly abusive of anyone not using raw HTML. Lemon curry? > Yes, > it gives me great pleasure to annoy them, since they are the ones being > bullies and they totally need to be laughed at, not listened to. And you are doing a hell of a job. :) > > You have a sick little cult in this NG, self-important and posturing, > utterly convinced of themselves while the silent majority just rolls > their eyes at them and gets on with their work. Speaking of which... > All this because you posted a link to a bloated and broken "RIA"? > > > > > >>> [...] > >>>> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com > >>> Presumably you have some relationship with that site. Even though it > >>> is HTML 4.01 Transitional, the W3C validator finds 27 errors. > >> Go flame Yahoo SiteBuilder. > > > Or better yet, the person who posted it as an example... > > >>>> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself." > >>>> Macworld > >>> Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious. > >> You never heard of Macworld? > > >http://www.google.com/search?q=%22The+best+Algebra+tutorial+program+I.... > > > returns no results... Do you have a more detailed reference? > > I have the whole review somewhere, but a digital version could be tough > to dig up. If you are seriously interested I'll look for it. The check's in the mail? |